School trans inclusive policy

[FlawedAmazon]

I know this is a bit of a long shot, but I need to get hold of some information regarding the allowing of boys that identify as girls into girls changing rooms.

As far as I remember, the wording mentioned that girls who felt uncomfortable about the arrangement, were 'encouraged' to choose a different activity.

I think it was schools that came under the remit of Brighton that received it. I'd be very grateful for any information.

Sorry for being so vague.

I dont think the Brighton policy document or the way you outlined earlier takes the rights of girls into account. It still puts the validation of one person over the rights of the others.

Women don’t want males in certain spaces, provisions etc. It’s just a no. Not an invitation to try harder, push more, negotiate, jam a wedge in or endlessly ask ‘what if we..?’ The answer is just no. Leave the girls be.

In short; NO.

FlawedAmazon - if you're still reading, aside from changing rooms, here is another important point from the Allsorts guidance that you could raise with your DGD's school:

It recommends that children are allowed to make confidential disclosures about gender to individual teachers without informing either their parents or the school safeguarding team or other professionals that may be working with the child.

This makes the child vulnerable to infiltrating abusers and is in direct contradiction to statutory safeguarding guidance, linked to below. I would recommend taking that guidance in to any meeting and asking whether or not the school is aware of this horrific safeguarding loophole.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/729914/Working_Together_to_Safeguard_Children-2018.pdf

A decision has to be made about who is most distressed and can get what might be seen as a privilege.

Yes, it does. And that's where Working Together comes in. So that a safeguarding partnership of school, parents and any other agencies can come to an agreement about the best way to proceed for an individual child. If say, you are the parent of a child who keeps truanting to avoid PE or who has meltdowns that disrupt lessons due to genuine distress, you will want a reasonable solution found, regardless of the root issue being gender or bullying or or or.

But of course, and unsurprisingly, the Allsorts guidance that OP's school may or may not be adopting, throws Working Together in the bin. To the benefit of nobody.

But who should be considered deserving of this? A decision has to be made about who is most distressed and can get what might be seen as a privilege.

I have a file about three inches thick from DS's school career. Asking for any adjustment (like slightly different uniform or exam arrangements, and, yes, sometime separate changing facilities) always seemed to involve three multiagency meetings and written evidence running to several pages.

So, I'd say there's a precedent for asking for evidence of psychological distress and taking it from there.

(He did sometimes make utterly unreasonable demands. Sometimes, when caught up in the thick of it all, I tried to push for them, to the possible detriment of other pupils . That kind of adjustment tended not to happen.]

I have outlined ways that the Brighton Policy Document could , with thought , planning, and resources, be put into practice to enable a trans pupil to take part in sport/ PE/ games in the " chosen" group without compromising the safety and peace of mind of the other pupils. As a close relative of several formerly abused girls, as I have said elsewhere, I find the accusation that I do not care about the needs of women and girls is wrong, and is offensive to me.

KayM2 - I am a woman who was sexually abused and raped throughout a very large part of my childhood. I was groomed to have no real understanding of boundaries and the word 'no'. As an adult I have been raped once and sexually assaulted and harassed on very many occasions by all sorts of men. I have been sexually harassed/assaulted twice at work in the last four months. I still have issues with asserting my boundaries and reporting when they are violated.

So for the sake of all girls and especially sexually abused girls the answer to the Brighton/Allsorts guidance is NO. It is never ok to violate girls' boundaries or to teach girls' that it is 'right and kind' to accept their boundaries being breached.

Suceeding in something, such as a sport, is one way in which an abused girl can start to heal. It is not ok to include those with male bodies in sporting competitions for females. It will result in girls who feel that they have the inferior type of body which is less strong or fast than the 'girls with the superior bodies'. Abused girls, in particular, may be especially susceptible to feeling that their female sex body is less worthy.

The Allsorts etc guidance does not take into account the needs of sexually abused girls, the majority of which will never talk about their abuse. These vulnerable girls will often have a trauma based response to males, especially in certain places such as changing rooms or sleeping accommodation. The Allsorts/Brighton guidance places the onus on the girls to speak up if they are uncomfortable. Many abused girls would never do this for fear of drawing attention to something that they feel ashamed of. The abused girl now has another thing that they feel unable to speak about which makes her even more vulnerable.

The Brighton guidance is in direct conflict with the needs of very vulnerable abused girls. The impact on these girls, and indeed all girls, should be properly assessed. It is dangerous to teach an abused girl that their abuser was right when he groomed her to believe that her boundaries and feelings matter less than others.

OK, so two of you have replied to my post with more or less the same comment, so it seems there may be something here that I haven't understood. I honestly don't understand why these children have a need to change separately.

I too, don't see why they would have more need to change separately than any other child who feels insecure about their body, which during puberty, is probably almost all girls and a lot of boys.

Being seen by others who have the same kind of sexed body is not worse for transgender children than for very fat children or very skinny children, or children who started puberty before their peers.

And changing rooms are surely more traumatic for children with actual disfigurements that they can be bullied over than for perfectly normal-looking trans kids.

A school providing separate spaces for trans children to change in doesn't hurt anyone (which makes this better than forcing girls to change with boys) but it does make other children feel left behind, and/or encourage them to identify as trans just to get their own spaces.

ChickenonaMug, I find it rather sad that you have to talk about your experiences here just to try and get some empathy.

I don't see why males should get one free rape per woman before said woman is allowed to want some privacy and safety.

That's like only letting those workers in a coalmine who already have suffered a bad head injury wear helmets.
(Only worse, because helmets need to be manufactured while sex segregated spaces already exist and don't get used up.)

Can someone point me at the post where Kay gave suggestions as to how a boy who identified as a girl could play sport and/or compete with the girls in ways which would not disadvantage or compromise the girls' participation?

I genuinely cannot see such suggestions.

I did not say that there were ways to ensure that girls would not be disadvantaged by male bodied trans-identified pupils. There may be, but I did not outline any . My remarks have only been related to changing facilities.

I've made it clear often enough that I am very unhappy indeed with transgirls taking part in award carrying sports with girls.

I have not addressed the issue of whether some girls would be demotivated by taking part in games sessions with trans girls. I think it is quite possible that some/ many might be. And we would not know.

Though as I understand it there is a tendency for girls to be quite accepting on a day to day level of transgirls in such as PE. Not if the blighters were put in the girls teams, you'd think, and hope.

What I DID say was that it was quite possible ( with outline examples off the top of my head, based on extensive experience of integrating disabled children into mainstream) for transgirls (is there such a word? ) to change before and after games lessons with privacy and decency for all. MOST ESPECIALLY for the girls, who, as I also said, represent the majority of those present .

Kay, why do you think pe is sex segregated in schools?

KayyM2

I read your comment " I have outlined ways that the Brighton Policy Document could , with thought , planning, and resources, be put into practice to enable a trans pupil to take part in sport/ PE/ games in the " chosen" group without compromising the safety and peace of mind of the other pupils." as referring to participation ("take part in sport/PE/games..."), rather than changing.

Because getting changed isn't actually 'taking part in sport/PE/games in the chosen group',is it?

This was why I asked for someone to point me at your suggestions.

Apologies for the extra y, there KayM2.

I've made it clear often enough that I am very unhappy indeed with transgirls taking part in award carrying sports with girls.

Why award carrying?

If sport is separated by sex its for a reason.
Many sports at primary age can be mixed sex.
The point at which males and females play sport separately are for safety, fairness & dignity.

If boys play sports with girls its a mixed sex event.

Though as I understand it there is a tendency for girls to be quite accepting on a day to day level of transgirls in such as PE. Not if the blighters were put in the girls teams, you'd think, and hope

Where is your evidence for this 'tendency'?

Though as I understand it there is a tendency for girls to be quite accepting on a day to day level of transgirls in such as PE.

Do you think this might be because they've been taught that they should 'be nice', even if they actually feel uncomfortable?

Though as I understand it there is a tendency for girls to be quite accepting on a day to day level of transgirls in such as PE.

Well, we had PE with the boys at my school, anyways. So anyone identifying as trans but staying out of the other sex's changing rooms wouldn't have made a difference.

That's not saying it wouldn't make a difference at a school where PE is segregated by sex.

Our teacher did use a different scale for grading girls and boys, and I would have been rather miffed if gender identity had overridden biology there, even though I just so scraped by and never had a chance to excel, anyway.

Hi LangCleg it's been a mad couple of days so haven't had the chance to come back to the thread.

I feel that I need to give a brief explanation as to why I asked my initial question.

I was in cafe on Sunday with my 13 year old granddaughter and 2 of her female friends. During our conversations about music, books and their favourite bands, one of the girls told me she was gay. I of course said that was absolutely fine and it's good she can talk about it.

She then told me she had a crush on a male actor. This confused me a bit tbh. I knew she was using a male name herself, and a few of the other girls at the school are also going by boy's names. The difference is, she's been brainwashed into believing she's a gay male. She was incredibly confused.

Apparently she's been told she's male because of the way she presents - short hair, jeans and shirts. Basically gender non-conforming. It then turned out that almost every single girl in their year has been convinced they're bisexual or trans. They don't even understand what these terms mean - they're still kids ffs!

The school is in Sussex and comes under the jurisdiction of Brighton. I really don't think the parents are being told what's going on and don't realise how deep this thing really goes and seem to think that it will blow over like most fashions do. I'm upset and angry that our children are being used to prop up a toxic ideology.

Sorry for the rant, but I was pretty upset after seeing how they were being lied to about people changing sex, and that females have to look a certain way. Our kids deserve better than this.

And changing rooms are surely more traumatic for children with actual disfigurements that they can be bullied over than for perfectly normal-looking trans kids.

Exactly. There's nothing 'wrong' or different about trans children's bodies. The changing rooms are segregated because of the difference between male and female bodies, so there's no reason for trans children to use anything other than the appropriate changing room for their sex. If they suffer from anxiety about other children seeing them undressed, that is a separate issue, and could be an issue for any of the other children as well.

What I'm saying is that trans children don't need different changing rooms from their peers just because they are trans.

Our kids deserve better than this

I couldn't agree more, OP, I couldn't agree more.

This thread, I imagine, has been quite the education in the ways people who think it's perfectly fine to give disinformation to children and who don't care anything for their boundaries, go about it.

My remarks have only been related to changing facilities.

And misrepresenting what happens in schools that implement the guidance that the OP was asking about, let's not forget that bit. It's an urban legend that schools adopting this guidance actually implement it, didn't you say?

Apparently she's been told she's male because of the way she presents - short hair, jeans and shirts.

So just like a normal girl growing up in the 70s or 80s. What on earth has gone wrong?

Apparently she's been told she's male because of the way she presents - short hair, jeans and shirts. Basically gender non-conforming. It then turned out that almost every single girl in their year has been convinced they're bisexual or trans. They don't even understand what these terms mean - they're still kids ffs!

Do you know who's told them this?

The trans talk my DD had in year 7 was wildly inappropriate. It conflicted sex, gender roles and presentation and sexuality. The children were also told that it's possible to change sex by taking medicine. They also encouraged the children to state their sexuality and gender.

Many parents complained, and I don't think the school ran that talk again.

FlawedAmazon

A perceptive post that a PP put on this thread.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3448102-why-my-transgender-son-dosent-want-self-id?pg=5

Y’know how women (all over the world, probably) invent fake boyfriends and husbands to make creepy dudes fuck off and leave them alone? Because simply saying you aren’t interested is interpreted as a challenge or makes you a target of abuse?

Sometimes I watch the polite, deferential young transmen on YouTube and can’t help but think they’ve taken it a step further and have actually become their own fake boyfriend in order to more efficiently ward off the creepy dudes.

Wearing a ‘wedding’ band was as far as my generation went.

She then told me she had a crush on a male actor. This confused me a bit tbh. I knew she was using a male name herself, and a few of the other girls at the school are also going by boy's names. The difference is, she's been brainwashed into believing she's a gay male. She was incredibly confused.

There are a lot of young females in certain social media networks identifying as 'gay' & 'trans boys'

The extent of this hasn't been realised yet.

Even though the last year has been a massive learning curve for me around this debate. I was genuinely shocked to meet it head on R0wantrees

I consider myself pretty well informed, but this threw me for a loop.