School trans inclusive policy

[FlawedAmazon]

I know this is a bit of a long shot, but I need to get hold of some information regarding the allowing of boys that identify as girls into girls changing rooms.

As far as I remember, the wording mentioned that girls who felt uncomfortable about the arrangement, were 'encouraged' to choose a different activity.

I think it was schools that came under the remit of Brighton that received it. I'd be very grateful for any information.

Sorry for being so vague.

Hence looking at the Guidance notes provided, and imagining how things could be devised to satisfy the document, and provide for the needs of the trans-identified child.

If you decide to come back to this thread, Kay, I've got one simple question for you.

We have sex-segregated changing rooms and toilets in schools because boys' bodies are different from girls' bodies. I hope we can agree on that. Can you describe what changes when a child declares that they are trans? Since they still have the same body, and that is the reason for separate changing rooms for girls and boys.

Even non competitive sport is an issue. Girls need to be able to compete fairly in school during ‘casual’ sport or they will quite right wonder what the point is.

Most competitive sport is fed by kids who want to try something g new or who have done well at something at school and want to go further. It all starts out as non competitive- no one turns up and is county level on day one (unless you’re a boy running the girls race I guess...)

If we make girls uncomfortable in casual sports at school, it will have a devastating knock on effect to women’s sport.

If we pressure girls to accept ‘fair enough’ solutions that they’re not actually happy with but accept because they have no choice then we create an entire generation of girls taught that they can’t say no. That their discomfort is less important than a man’s validation. That their boundaries can be broken easily.

Is that what we want? It seems like a shitty move to me. Aren’t we supposed to be telling kids that their bodily autonomy and boundaries are important? That they can say NO?

All these great campaigns like PANTS by NSPCC etc teach kids The importance of being able to say no to things they aren’t comfy with. This blows it out of the water.

The student who is causing the discomfort is the one who needs alternative provision. The girls who are discomfited are not the problem.

Of course an entire generation of kids who can’t say no, who have no boundaries and who are taught that their comfort and happiness is secondary to men’s desires - some might say that was the aim.

Kay - if you gaslight women on a feminist forum, they are going to challenge you. If your reaction is to appeal to female socialisation, they are going to challenge you again. If you then flounce from the thread only to turn up on the next thread and repeat the pattern, you're going to get challenged again. You seem incapable of reflecting on why you are regularly challenged. Such reflection may be helpful. Endless temporary flouncing is not going to get you anywhere.

Women’s safety matters kay - many women have put up over the years with a range of shit, from low level comments through groping and voyeurism through to serious assault. I don’t know a single woman who has never experienced anything of that ilk. Not one.

Now we are told that we just need to be nice and let all those men in our spaces and it’ll probably be ok. Butvwhen you’re my age you’ve seen too much bad behaviour to think it’ll be Ok. It won’t.

Is it a surprise that those women say no?

Children’s safety matters. Many women have put up over the years with men impinging on their boundaries - but if someone threatens the safety of their kids they will not put up with it. There’s a biological imperative to protect children that goes beyond self preservation. If the public realises what this means for child safety its game over for TRA influence.

I’m sick of being nice and being harmed because of it. I no longer believe it’ll all be Ok. I’m sick of reading endless news articles about the damage men do women and children. I’ve seen too many things happen to women. Enough. I say NO.

NO NO NO.

And I have no respect at all for men who do not heed when a woman says NO. None.

The student who is causing the discomfort is the one who needs alternative provision.

The thing is, Bowl, that could be taken to apply to children with, say, a facial disfigurement or non-NT behaviour. I have a feeling that's what Kay is getting at when mentioning experience in SN, and excluding a child for such differences isn't OK.

The thing is, Bowl, that could be taken to apply to children with, say, a facial disfigurement or non-NT behaviour. I have a feeling that's what Kay is getting at when mentioning experience in SN, and excluding a child for such differences isn't OK.

I know that's what Kay is getting at, but we know that's a false comparison.

Boys and girls are segregated for changing and sport, for safety, dignity and opportunities. Kay wants to override this sex segregation.

Agreed.

but we know that's a false comparison

More an obvious attempt at misdirection and deflection.

It’s not a genuine comparison.

If I’m in the changing room and someone is changing and they have a disfigurement I am not at any point in danger. The woman changing next to me with a disfigurement is nondanger to me. She is not harming my boundaries.

If a man is in my changing room - I could be in danger. My boundaries alhave been broken.

The two are not equivalent, in any way.

When we treat a child with a disfigurement with compassion and educate their peers we do them all a favour. They may initially feel discomfort but that discomfort is not primed by potential future or present danger.

When we break down the boundaries of girls and boys by telling them that their discomfort which IS primed by a potential danger (males in an area they are vulnerable) then we do them a disservice. We tell them that they must disregard their instincts, disregard their own safety. We teach them their boundaries mean nothing.

It is Nothing like helping a student with a disfigurement, and I’m fairly sick of such comparisons - it’s an appeal to female socialisation to be nice, and to shove the end of the wedge in.

A bit like the ‘sex workers for disabled men’ threads.

I agree with all of that, Bowl. I was saying that that one sentence, taken out of context, could and would be misconstrued.

But maybe I need to leave the day job to one side on here.

If a man is in my changing room - I could be in danger. My boundaries alhave been broken.

It's a wider issue than danger, though. It's a question of should a girl have to undress in front of a boy? Should a girl have to see a naked boy's body if she doesn't want to?

Safety, privacy and dignity. For girls and boys. Whose bodies are different from each other. Whose bodies don't change just because one of them says the magic words 'I am trans'.

A boy is still a boy, even if he thinks he's a girl. He still has a boy's body and should change with the other people who have the same type of body.

I don't agree with that, actually, OldCrone. A boy who genuinely thinks he should be a girl and is distressed by it should be allowed to change separately.

Changing separately as an issue of privacy for gender-questioning children is a good solution (unattractive to schools because of a lack of resources, however). It's the equivalent of the third space option for adults.

Just a reminder that schools are required by law to provide sex-segregated spaces for children aged 8 years and over:

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/1943/regulation/4/made

A boy who genuinely thinks he should be a girl and is distressed by it should be allowed to change separately.

OK, so two of you have replied to my post with more or less the same comment, so it seems there may be something here that I haven't understood. I honestly don't understand why these children have a need to change separately.

Please can someone explain a bit more why they should? I realise this might sound a bit goady, but I really don't understand. Most teenagers are self-conscious about changing rooms - it's one of the less pleasant memories I have from my own teenage years. If I was a teenager now I'd be tempted to identify as trans if it meant I would get a private space to change in.

I honestly don't understand why these children have a need to change separately.

No neither do I. I can understand why a child with a disfigurement might want to change privately (bullying for example, trauma following surgery,etc) but a child should change in the company of their same sex peers unless there’s a genuine reason to change in their own space. There is never a genuine reason to have them change with the opposite sex

It's a wider issue than danger, though. It's a question of should a girl have to undress in front of a boy? Should a girl have to see a naked boy's body if she doesn't want to?

Absolutely no they shoudnt have to (that’s what I mean by boundaries.) we are teaching kids that they don’t have a right to say no. That’s not good. Not good at all.

Because, I would say, that the aim of the school should be to facilitate distressed children to take part in PE, which is a healthy activity and good for them.

I don't believe there is any such thing as an innate gender identity and neither do I believe that there is any such thing as a trans child. I'm a gender ideology apostate.

That's not the same thing as recognising distress in a child and a school making reasonable accommodations so that the distressed child can participate fully. It doesn't really matter what is at the root of that distress (although one would hope it was being properly addressed outwith the school day).

Absolutely no they shoudnt have to (that’s what I mean by boundaries.) we are teaching kids that they don’t have a right to say no. That’s not good. Not good at all.

Exactly. Children with reduced boundaries is a terrible prospect.

I have sympathy for distressed adolescents with all sorts of angst and think that separate changing is a reasonable adjustment.

( I have an autistic child. The question of what's a reasonable response to invisible causes of unusual distress, and what should just get 'Pfft, suck it up, buttercup' is one I've pondered quite a bit.)

Fair point, kitties.

I can accept genuine reasons for individual changing. I can’t accept a child changing with the opposite sex.

I can accept genuine reasons for individual changing. I can’t accept a child changing with the opposite sex.

This is my position. And, whether we believe in gender identity or not, I think we can all say that the associated distress is real.

hey; I popped back; had to really, as it was said that I " flounced". I'm going to try to state my ( misrepresented ) views, and underline some of the things I have already said, but which have been missed or misinterpreted. I'm quite capable of writing stuff which goes out before being properly edited on social media.

1: I have earlier referred to "trans -identified " pupils. This is because I maintain that many of them will not turn out to be trannsexual , or to live permanently in the adopted social role. And I wanted to demonstrate that I have taken that on board.

2: I have said that the needs of what I have referred to several times as the t-i pupil do NOT trump the needs of the other pupils. Who are much more numerous.

3: As someone who has had experience of devising and putting into practice Special Needs Policies, where it is essential to be able to show that the " many" are not suffering because of the needs of " the few" I have outlined ways that the Brighton Policy Document could , with thought , planning, and resources, be put into practice to enable a trans pupil to take part in sport/ PE/ games in the " chosen" group without compromising the safety and peace of mind of the other pupils. As a close relative of several formerly abused girls, as I have said elsewhere, I find the accusation that I do not care about the needs of women and girls is wrong, and is offensive to me.

We have segregation in sport for valid reasons, it's not right that these issues are disregard. Enforcing mix sex pe lessons onto girls can be dangerous, unfair, reduce girls opportunities and led to girls withdrawing from sport altogether.

You don't understand the needs of girls.

I can accept genuine reasons for individual changing. I can’t accept a child changing with the opposite sex.

I agree with this.

I have sympathy for distressed adolescents with all sorts of angst and think that separate changing is a reasonable adjustment.

But who should be considered deserving of this? A decision has to be made about who is most distressed and can get what might be seen as a privilege. Should the rights of the trans child trump those of someone whose anxiety about communal changing stems from some trauma or other condition? Short of changing everything to individual cubicles, which wouldn't be practical in a school, decisions have to be made about whose need is greatest.

As I understand it, girls who identify as boys aren't asking to change with the boys - and seem mostly content to change with the girls or ask for individual changing rooms. Are the boys who identify as girls asking to change with the girls or for individual changing rooms? If they're asking to change with the girls it seems that they don't have a problem with communal changing rooms. I would expect that changing with the girls, who have the sort of body they want, would be even more traumatic than changing with the boys.