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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School trans inclusive policy

181 replies

FlawedAmazon · 10/12/2018 20:20

I know this is a bit of a long shot, but I need to get hold of some information regarding the allowing of boys that identify as girls into girls changing rooms.

As far as I remember, the wording mentioned that girls who felt uncomfortable about the arrangement, were 'encouraged' to choose a different activity.

I think it was schools that came under the remit of Brighton that received it. I'd be very grateful for any information.

Sorry for being so vague.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 18:45

I consider myself pretty well informed, but this threw me for a loop.

Yes, me too.
I only became aware of this recently.

Materialist · 11/12/2018 18:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 18:52

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T is for TRANS! - Transgender: QUEER KID STUFF #12
119,688 views

www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=57&v=Kq8DRz3yXLI

full range of videos:
www.youtube.com/channel/UCecsVoeJcsXbAra7Sl4mOPw/videos

HestiaParthenos · 11/12/2018 18:55

and a lot of these girls are making a disastrous assumption, based on fanfic etc, that gay males will want them as romantic or sexual partners.

WTF?

Is trans fanfic that common now?

"Slash" fanfic was very popular when I was a teenager, and I thought it was understood that, while heterosexual women like to read about gay men, and perhaps like to fantasise about being in an equal relationship with a man, gay men are only interested in other gay men.
Because, obviously, they are gay and that's what being gay means.

Men who are attracted to the female body are called heterosexual. Confused

feministfairy · 11/12/2018 18:55

Excellent thread. Children are being groomed - and I use the term deliberately. Never before have we allowed 'political' organisations into schools to try to influence children in their beliefs and sexual presentations. The fall out from all this will be immense and catastrophic for those children.

FairytaleOfWigan · 11/12/2018 18:55

Apparently she's been told she's male because of the way she presents - short hair, jeans and shirts. Basically gender non-conforming. It then turned out that almost every single girl in their year has been convinced they're bisexual or trans

Fascinating ! So when trans ideology is aggressively promoted, the girls have to be Trans - ish to fit it, be part of the cool crowd.

At my kids school it’s the opposite and has the opposite outcome. Trans ideology is NOT pushed at all - there are many children from faith groups to whom it would be completely unacceptable . The pupils who have identified as trans are those who didn’t fit it and have formed an alternative sub culture .

In Y7 they were into Harry Potter in a big way. Then they were self harming in a very public way. Then blue hair ( coloured hair is permitted at this school ). After that they were Goths and now they are trans identifying .

Most of their year group smile and nod in a “ so this is their latest phase “ mood. Which is probably what kay2 means that kids are “accepting “.

My guess is that most of these teens have mental health issues and / or have ASC. At least one that I know was sexually abused.

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 18:55

YY Rowantrees and a lot of these girls are making a disastrous assumption, based on fanfic etc, that gay males will want them as romantic or sexual partners. Not gonna happen. They’re setting themselves up for hard rejection.

Recent situation when female identifying as gay transman challenged singe-sex gay sauna:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410716-Transman-kicked-out-of-gay-sauna

HestiaParthenos · 11/12/2018 19:00

Recent situation when female identifying as gay transman challenged single-sex gay sauna

Let me guess, that person was kicked out?

They see males walk into female spaces and think it is all equal and females can just walk into male spaces and demand males have sex with them.

Well, it doesn't work like that.

KayM2 · 11/12/2018 19:04

Langcleg; re your post18;26;37
You misquote, or misunderstand; I said that it is an urban legend that girls are forced to shower and change with male bodied trans kids.

The guidance we have been discussing does not at any stage assert that that is how things should be done. It would wend the career of any school managers who interpreted it that way.

I have given some examples from my own career of ways that that Guidance could be followed with total protection of girls rights, privacy, and protection.

Sometimes it is almost as if you post in answer to my posts based on an assumption that I am out to harm women and girls, so ignore it when I say I'm not.

If anyone DID assume that guidance said that girls and transgirls must shower together, you'd have hoped that a retired head teacher of special schools coming on here and saying that it doesn't mean that might be a bit of a comfort to anyone who was ( rightly ) worried about it.

Jus' sayin'

FairytaleOfWigan · 11/12/2018 19:07

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R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 19:13

The pupils who have identified as trans are those who didn’t fit it and have formed an alternative sub culture .

Teacher who whistleblew recently described situation at school
Mail on Sunday front page:
'School has SEVENTEEN children changing gender as teacher says vulnerable pupils are being 'tricked' into believing they are the wrong sex'
(extract)

Most of the youngsters undergoing the transformation are autistic, according to a teacher there, who said vulnerable children with mental health problems were being ‘tricked’ into believing they are the wrong sex.

The teacher says she felt compelled to speak out to protect pupils, many of whom she believes could already be taking the powerful drugs and may go on to have life-changing surgery.

She believes schools and some politicians have swallowed ‘hook, line and sinker’ a politically-correct ‘fallacy’ peddled by a powerful transgender lobby.

Older pupils at her school who changed gender ‘groomed’ younger, mainly autistic students to do the same;

One autistic teenager is soon to have a double mastectomy;

Pupils who say they were born the wrong sex mimic transgender YouTube stars Carol believes are partly to blame for convincing vulnerable children they have gender dysphoria.

Last night, Conservative MP David Davies said: ‘I congratulate this teacher for coming out and telling us what I have long suspected has been going on in schools. It is horrendous that children are being encouraged by other pupils to identify as transgender, particularly if they have autism.

‘Parents are not told about this and there is no way of challenging these pupils who are convinced by others that they have a problem they almost certainly do not have. Tragically the end result could be irreversible surgical procedures. This is scandalous.’

The teacher, who has her own child, also believes many of those who say they are the wrong sex are simply gay but would face bullying if they were to ‘come out’. By contrast, she says, transgender children at the school are idolised by other pupils.

She has also raised concerns that many teachers are now too scared to challenge students’ claims they are transgender because they fear being sacked or sued for being transphobic.

The 17 pupils now identifying as transgender are following in the footsteps of a teenager who has now left the school and is planning a double mastectomy.

That student, who was born female, told Carol she wanted to identify as non-binary-a person – with no specific gender – in January 2014, at the age of 16 and two years after being diagnosed as autistic.

After consulting with her parents, the school agreed to change the student’s name on the register to one that was gender neutral. Teachers also agreed to use both male and female pronouns depending what gender the student identified as on any given day.

‘These pronouns could change from hour to hour depending how the student was feeling,’ Carol said.

Carol put the pupil in contact with a transgender support group but now says she bitterly regrets her handling of the case. ‘That child was diagnosed as autistic at the age of 14 and certainly was not transgender,’ she said. ‘She had other complicated mental health problems. It is a tragedy her claim was accepted so readily. Now she is going to mutilate her body.’

Over the next four years, the 17 pupils who have ‘come out’ as transgender have become powerful within the school, Carol says.

They wear identical clothing and hairstyles and often adopt the names of transgender YouTube stars. She has also witnessed first-hand how older pupils have persuaded younger ones with autism that they, too, were born the wrong sex – a process she has likens to ‘grooming’.

‘They are just young people with mental health problems who have found an identity and want to be part of a group of like-minded people,’ she said.

Over an unblemished teaching career spanning two decades, Carol has devoted much of her time to the emotional and personal well-being of the pupils in her care.

So when a 16-year-old student she had known for many years quietly confided that she felt trapped in the wrong body and was considering changing gender, her instinct was to take the teenager lovingly under her wing.

Even though Carol knew the child had been diagnosed as autistic two years earlier, she vowed to provide the support the youngster needed to guide her through what would obviously be a difficult journey.

It was January 2014 and the debate over transgender rights, so supercharged today, had barely begun.

The baffling array of terminology used to define various permutations of so-called ‘gender identity’ was yet to emerge and Carol admits she didn’t know where to turn for help.

But then, because she was in charge of pupils’ pastoral care, Carol was contacted by an organisation that aimed to help transgender youngsters.

The body, which Carol has asked us not to name because she fears doing so might identify her and the pupil, had recently opened a centre nearby.

The student, who was born female, had insisted that she now wanted to identify as non-binary – a person with no specific gender – so Carol happily referred her to the group. But the gently spoken mother has come to bitterly regret that decision.

‘Once she was involved with that group there was no turning back,’ she says. ‘It was decided that she was transgender and that was that, it was never challenged and I blame myself for that.’

Carol now firmly believes that the student never suffered from gender dysphoria – the medical term for someone who feels they were born in the wrong body – but was simply autistic and should have been offered more help to cope with their emotional and social difficulties.

What makes this even more painful for Carol and is one of the reasons she has chosen to speak out today is that she has learned the girl is planning a double mastectomy as part of her gender realignment.

She says: ‘That child was diagnosed as autistic at the age of 14 and certainly was not transgender – she had complicated mental health problems. It is a tragedy that now she is going to mutilate her body.’

The teen asked if she could hold an assembly to tell other pupils at the school about being transgender, but Carol blocked this.

Now she understands the pupil informally ‘educated’ fellow students, which Carol suspects could have been the catalyst for a wave of ‘copycat’ cases among autistic pupils. She says the process reminds her of ‘grooming’.

Over the next four years, Carol witnessed an astonishing explosion in the number of children claiming to be transgender.

In all but a very few cases, she says, the children were officially diagnosed as autistic by the local education authority. Those not formally diagnosed showed clear signs of being on the autistic spectrum, she says.

According to Carol, nine of the 18 children she has seen identify as transgender have been diagnosed with autism while the rest had definite signs of the condition. ‘Typically, these children are bright outsiders,’ she says.

‘I don’t believe they are actually transgender. They are just young people with complex mental health issues who have found an identity and want to be part of a group of like-minded people.’

According to an internal report, a third of patients referred to the Tavistock Clinic, the UK’s only NHS service for young people confused about their gender, have strong autistic traits." (continues)

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6401593/amp/Whistleblower-teacher-makes-shocking-claim-autistic.
thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3426753-Tomorrows-Mail-on-Sunday-Front-Page

Times article re possible social contagion in a single school in Brighton:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3433540-School-in-Brighton-with-76-trans-gender-fluid-kids

OldCrone · 11/12/2018 19:15

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Bowlofbabelfish · 11/12/2018 19:16

said that it is an urban legend that girls are forced to shower and change with male bodied trans kids.

A couple of hundred girls at Lila Perry’s school would beg to disagree

KayM2 · 11/12/2018 19:18

Materialist; 18;41;06

yes, I am aware oif that. Everybody probably is. My remark " IS there such a word? " was a crashingly unsuccessful effort to introduce a little wry humour about the way our language is constantly being changed under our feet, so to speak.

You know, ( ie you and anyone else who reads this) you'd be forgiven for thinking from the snotty replies to my posts that I wasn't actually on the side of girl pupils, and keen that they be protected.

I don't like the explosion of trans identified kids. I think there is contagion. I don't think the vast majority are going to transition ,with hormones, blockers and surgery. I think that some who do, will regret it for the rest of their lives. It is a mess.

I hate noisy transactivists, and detest their methods. I say so. Often.

I'm dead against self ID. I've said all this, some of it on this thread. It is contained in what I write, and the implications of what I advocate.

If this is the way you treat a semi-detached , tryin' to do the decent thing ally, , how do you treat your enemies? This, again, is only a tongue in cheek comment.

LangCleg · 11/12/2018 19:19

The guidance we have been discussing does not at any stage assert that that is how things should be done. It would wend the career of any school managers who interpreted it that way.

Why do you even say this stuff, if not to deliberately mislead people? I cannot assume good faith in you because you never show it.

From the guidance:

Toilets:

Pupils and students are supported through the Equality Act to access the toilet that corresponds to their gender identity; so trans girls because they are girls, can use the girls’ toilets and trans boys the boys’ toilets.

(This is a deliberate misrepresentation of EqA and school statutory guidance actually mandates single sex toilets).

Changing rooms:

In all cases, trans pupils or students should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity

Sports:

Trans and gender questioning pupils and students should be permitted to participate in competitions and sports days in a manner consistent with their gender identity if they wish to do so.

Residentials:

trans pupils and students should be able to sleep in dorms appropriate to their gender identity. Some trans children and young people may not feel comfortable doing this and in such cases alternative sleeping and living arrangements should be made.

(But tough cookies if you're a girl who doesn't want to share with penis and who cares if anyone gets pregnant?)

Kay - stop saying things that you know aren't true.

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 19:20

If anyone DID assume that guidance said that girls and transgirls must shower together, you'd have hoped that a retired head teacher of special schools coming on here and saying that it doesn't mean that might be a bit of a comfort to anyone who was ( rightly ) worried about it.

The Allsorts guidance re changing rooms (which will include showers) does advocate that male pulpils who identify as trans access this space.

Also that if girls are uncomfortable with this they should be provided with alternative changing options.

Whilst of course no girl is going to be forced to shower with a male pupil, I also suspect the days of any forced communal post PE showers are also a thing of the past.

it was a horrific experience for most of the girls at my school despite being a solely single sex space

OldCrone · 11/12/2018 19:22

KayM2 You really don't seem to have a clue about what is going on. Have a read of this thread or any other recent thread on FWR about the Girl Guides.

The Girl Guides seem to be totally upfront about their lack of safeguarding, but don't kid yourself that it's not happening in schools as well.

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 19:23

If anyone DID assume that guidance said that girls and transgirls must shower together, you'd have hoped that a retired head teacher of special schools coming on here and saying that it doesn't mean that might be a bit of a comfort to anyone who was ( rightly ) worried about it.

Kay there's not much you've posted recently which should 'give comfort' to women or parents.

FlawedAmazon · 11/12/2018 19:24

twofalls They do have a trans policy but it's a tad woolly. Too much wiggle room.

OP posts:
HestiaParthenos · 11/12/2018 19:26

I have given some examples from my own career of ways that that Guidance could be followed with total protection of girls rights, privacy, and protection.

The fact that Guidance could, hypothetically, be followed without violating girls' boundaries doesn't really help any girl when institutions just decide to follow it in a way that does violate girl's boundaries.

NotAnotherJaffaCake · 11/12/2018 19:29

Can you stop trying to conflate SEN and trans issues, Kay? They are absolutely not the same thing. I have almost never seen anything in an EHCP that affects another child, let alone a protected group, for starters.

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 19:32

Claire Graham has critiqued the Allsorts resource with regards policies and legislation focussing on Safeguarding:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu9ng3tY5b0

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 19:37

Guardian article May 2018
'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'

(extract)

Stephanie Davies-Arai, a parenting adviser, launched the Transgender Trend resource pack in February half-term, thinking it would barely get noticed. Instead, she says: “It just blew up”. The LGBT lobby group Stonewall accused Transgender Trend, the organisation Davies-Arai set up two-and-a-half years ago, of spreading “damaging myths, panic and confusion”, and advised local authorities not to use the pack. On Twitter, people piled in, with one describing the pack (which had been checked by lawyers) as a “modern edition of Mein Kampf”.

Davies-Arai says she took an interest in the subject because as a child she had felt herself to be a boy, and she didn’t think it was a good idea to label children like her as transgender because she believes that in some cases, these feelings resolve naturally by the end of adolescence.

While the Allsorts advice states that “trans pupils or students should have access to the changing room that corresponds to their gender identity” and that in PE lessons, students “should be enabled to participate in the activity which corresponds to their gender identity if this is what they request”, Davies-Arai argues that shared changing rooms present difficulties for some girls. Few teenage girls will be willing to admit that they feel uncomfortable sharing a changing room with a biologically male student, she says.

She points out that the technical guidance on the Equality Act for schools suggests offering students “private changing facilities, such as the staff changing room or another suitable space” – the approach taken at Miles’s school.

Susie Green, CEO of the charity Mermaids, disagrees, saying the debate about single-sex toilets seems “engineered to whip up fear” and is equivalent to “arguing people of colour shouldn’t be allowed to use the same toilets as white people in case they make them dirty”. (continues)

Davies-Arai says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

Green disagrees, and argues for a biological underpinning to transgender identity: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.” (continues)
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

R0wantrees · 11/12/2018 19:53

'Professor Michele Moore is an expert in Inclusive Education and Disability Studies. She leads human rights projects across the world to support children, their families and those who work with them. She is the Co-Editor of the ground-breaking book Transgender Children and Young People, Born in Your Own Body from Cambridge Scholars. Michele will be discussing ideas from the book – the implications of self-declaration of gender for children and young people, including disabled children'

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATNRbJW_JI8

KayM2 · 11/12/2018 20:26

jaffacake
I'm not conflating the two.
I'm referring to the way that the two issues of physically disabled kinds and trans kids have close parallels in the planning, timetabling, resource issues. We don't want the wrong people to see willies in the wrong places. Nor do we want the wrong people to see prosthetic limbs or stomas . There are practical issues in common.

Instead of posting angrily, why not ask me why I connected the two issues.

And as I'm sure you know; SEN does not refer specifically to learning disabilities. The clue is in the name. ie Special Educational Needs; (I've often had dealing with SEN co-ordinators over provision for exceptionally gifted children). The resources need to support and supervise a trans kid in games and around games lessons are very often going to be co-ordinated by the Sp Needs support staff, to ensure privacy. There are financial costs.

I'm trying to be practical. I'm not advocating that kids decide they are trans. I wish to blazes that they wouldn't, and in such bizarre numbers. It often does not end well, and if it does it is a hard road to travel.

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