School trans inclusive policy

[FlawedAmazon]

I know this is a bit of a long shot, but I need to get hold of some information regarding the allowing of boys that identify as girls into girls changing rooms.

As far as I remember, the wording mentioned that girls who felt uncomfortable about the arrangement, were 'encouraged' to choose a different activity.

I think it was schools that came under the remit of Brighton that received it. I'd be very grateful for any information.

Sorry for being so vague.

Thank you, BTH.

You have reminded me that I am old, tired, and obviously wasting my time. Good night to all!

You're welcome, KayM2!

Why the drama? Would there be a risk of pregnancy, for example?

Good question!

This is what baffles me, each time sex segregated spaces are tested.

It's like folk forget about sex - actual sex. Those wanting to be nice and inclusive seem to ignore sexual urges and sexual attraction. No matter what 'gender' they are, they still function sexually.

There is wriggle room under the section on changing rooms..

Wriggle room isn't good enough. Female school children should not be in changing rooms with male school children.

I find it disturbing that school policy would not state single sex changing explicitly.

a wise school will suggest that the pupil might wish to change in the next, but gender appropriate , room/ space, or in the teacher's changing rooms. or not enter the changing rooms till the " bottom half"was sorted, in a single cubicle loo

Can I just check that I understand your suggestion ? The school would suggest to a trans girl that she changed her underwear / shorts in the cubicle and then she would be free to enter the communal shower/ changing area where XX girls were naked or in their underwear. Is that correct?

Fairytale of W; no, I am not suggesting that. Why would I be, when I am vocal in protecting women and girls from fear and danger?

That is EXACTLY what you said. Word for fucking word.

The policy at DD's old school was that trans identifying students could change in the cubicle toilets (separate to changing rooms) or or office - arrangements are made based on needs. The f-m trans all stayed in the girls changing room, the m-f used the office (yes 4 students in DD's year out of 750 students!

Can I point out that young people are a lot less bothered by all this than Mumsnetters! They take it all in their stride, I'm met with a "mum you don't understand" when I express I'm uncomfortable with men's bits in the ladies changing rooms whereas dd thought it was hilarious, not male body parts but my reaction! Just like my parents generation didn't understand people being gay, I struggle with trans - my kids just don't care, they accept people for who they are and are really fluid on sexuality too (both are straight but seems experimentation is the norm). I accept I just don't get it!

Annie.

The indifference is probably because we have allowed people to go onto schools and basically groom children out of defining boundries.

All the YouTubers. All the visitors to schools.

They have been groomed to accept this. They won't realise til it's too late and they are assulted in a previously safe space.

Turkeys voting for Xmas.

I go to a lot of different schools as I teach dance workshops. In my experience, trans students are usually given a separate space in which to change or allowed to change before/after everyone else. They are usually happy with this decision as most of the time they are just bothered about being able to change comfortably, not making a stand.

Do kids actually shower at school - my high school kids never have.

A local school had a 16yr old turn up one Monday as a girl. The school was shocked initially but supportive. Seperate loo and changing was agreed. This was a few years back though so might be different now.

I think Kay makes an interesting point. The only case I have come across - at the school of a friend’s child, arrangements were made for separate changing facilities for a trans girl. I have read, and been mightily alarmed by Allsorts guidance for schools, but I think it’s true that most schools and teachers - as I think most people in general will not be at all comfortable shoving a male bodied child in with girls changing. They will make “sensible arrangements” which satisfy everyone.

However, with the concept of self Id, and the cultural shift in respect of trans people, I think it inevitable that separate arrangements will be challenged, that there will be insistence on “inclusivity”. After all, TWAW so TGAG. This is when I think people will start to wake up. Parents WILL complain. Teachers WILL be divided. They won’t be able to simply make sensible arrangements because they will be seen as discriminatory and transphobic. This IS the way things are going even if rare or unheard of now.

I do NOT buy into the idea that young women are not bothered at the idea of male bodies in their spaces. Some might not, some are too keen to fit in to say they are bothered by it. I know that my 11 yr old would be extremely distressed at having to remove clothing in the presence of a male body.

Just like my parents generation didn't understand people being gay, I struggle with trans - my kids just don't care, they accept people for who they are

This statement contradicts itself. Being trans is about not accepting yourself for who you are, and thinking there is something wrong with your body, then trying to get everyone else to accept you as something you are not.

I'm happy to accept everyone as they are - gender conforming or non-conforming. What I can't accept is that someone who is gender non-conforming and/or hates their sexed body is somehow the opposite sex.

The indifference is probably because we have allowed people to go onto schools and basically groom children out of defining boundries.

This.

The OP of this thread was looking for trans-inclusive guidance that is currently going into schools on behalf of her granddaughter (presumably because her granddaughter's school is about to adopt this guidance). We have found it for her.

To say that it is an urban legend that schools who adopt this guidance actually implement its recommendations is a direct lie. A gaslighting, lying, lie. Shall we tell the mother whose 11-year-old daughter was exposed to a classmate masturbating an erect penis in a school changing room that she made it all up? This is MRA, victim-blaming rhetoric and it has no place in a feminist space.

Shame on people who do this. It's actually worse than open transactivists who come on here and say the guidance is great. At least they are being honest.

I'm not immensely happy at the idea that we write guidelines with 'wriggle room' that means they don't quite mean what they say.

KayM2, are you saying that we should officially tell schools to treat male children as girls but wink and nod at them until they understand that it means 'but not really'?

(To save any effort, I'll report myself for daring to be bloody furious at open gaslighting on a feminist board.)

Step aside girls.

Didn't Lily Madigan's school try to treat her kindly while preventing her using the girls' facilities with the girls? And isn't she currently boasting about suing them for it?

And here's a school this year that tried to use sensible wriggle room but was forced (by Gina-sometimes Denham) to change its mind:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-43462823

Kay, do you think that their first policy was correct, or the one they were forced to change to?

I find it disturbing that school policy would not state single sex changing explicitly.

People making these policies for schools need to start engaging their brains and thinking about why we have single-sex toilets and changing rooms in schools.

Is it because girls are caring and nurturing and boys are macho? Is it because girls like wearing pretty clothes and boys like football? Or could it be just because girls' bodies are different from boys' bodies? And if that is the case, what actually changes when a child declares that they are trans?

I retire from this stuff. As someone who has had many years of experience in drawing up and operating special needs guidance, for individual schools and also for an outer London Borough, I kind fgo thought that my experience would be relevant. Hence looking at the Guidance notes provided, and imagining how things could be devised to satisfy the document, and provide for the needs of the trans-identified child. **

** I say trans identified , because at hat stage no formal assessment will have been made, or would be appropriate. Like the Tavistock , I do not regard someone who MAY be transsexual / transgender as provably so. So the protection and safety of the other pupils is even more essential.

Despite my careful, if imperfect, efforts, a minority of posters have repeatedly showed themselves to be angered by what I have said. Or rather, what they assumed I meant, despite me not saying it.

So, I retire from this thread. Not defeated, just sick of insulting assumptions about my words and intentions. Have fun.

I don't want safeguarding policy writen with the assumption that trans children are rare and that few of those children would want to cause problems for other children. It's almost as if we are saying that the probability of male children undressing alongside female children is so rare, we don't have to consider it.

It just takes one child, and lots of school girls are forced to undress alongside male school children. We need to ensure children are safe at school, not just cross our fingers and hope it doesn't happen.

Despite my careful, if imperfect, efforts, a minority of posters have repeatedly showed themselves to be angered by what I have said. Or rather, what they assumed I meant, despite me not saying it.

You LITERALLY said it.

just sick of insulting assumptions about my words and intentions

It isn't an assumption. It is your words.