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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia

746 replies

NotTerfNorCis · 06/12/2018 18:16

broadly.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/a3mn9k/mumsnet-uk-mom-forum-terf-transphobia-feminism

Thought people might be interested in this article. One thing that strikes me is the 'reducing women to their biology' argument. Don't transwomen 'know' they're not male because their body feels wrong? Then it is about biology isn't it? Otherwise why do they think they're female?

OP posts:
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17
LikeDust · 07/12/2018 10:03

Yes it is interesting and a bit depressing -the changing ways women have been drawn into anti-feminism and joining the fight for male supremacy.

It used to be that feminists were smeared as "hairy-legged, man-hating, dungaree-wearing lesbians" - so women fell over themselves to say "Its my choice to have an arduous person care routine and wear uncomfortable, flimsy clothes. Therefore this is feminism" and "I like/love/prefer men and every thing they do - they are having the hard time- what about mens rights".

But the need for feminism didn't go away, so feminists fighting sexual abuse and expolitation were called 'anti-sex' and the women who sided with the fellas called themselves "sex positives"....

Then Savile and Me Too happened - the need for feminism was still there, so the antifeminists call us 'white' and 'middle aged'.

It will be embarrassing for witless handmaidens to see exactly how they have been played in a long-line of self-replenishing young, naive and ignorant handmaidens.

A note to you Eve. When time and truth catches up with you - you will be accepted with compassion. I hope your moment of revelation isn't to painful.

R0wantrees · 07/12/2018 10:08

the "journalist" (and I use that word loosely) is deliberately misrepresenting the content of this forum (and seems not to know much about it) whilst totally ignoring the actions and behaviour of TRAs. Rape and murder threats, physical attacks, urine splashed on office doors, highly regarded University academics living in fear because they dare to doubt the trans cult ideology,

The screenshot of FWR topics which Eve chose to 'prove' some TRAs claim that this forum was preoccupied with discussing people who are transgender includes the thread discussing the bullying and intimidation of Prof Rosa Freedman by TRAs which has escalated this week.

It has since been covered by many mainstream newspapers.

Eve had the opportunity to cover an important story. One which will have increasing coverage.

James Kirkup The Spectator: 'Women are abused in the name of ‘trans rights’. But do MPs care?'
concludes:
"How did this come about? How did the abuse and intimidation of women for simply talking about the law come to seem almost routine and mundane? That’s a question that should be asked more, and answered by anyone who mouths those words about respectful debate and a conversation free from abuse. That includes the people who run universities, who should ask academics who preach that “trans women are women” whether they are encouraging students to take an intolerant approach to women who happen to have differing views.

And most of all, it should be addressed by any politician who says they believe in free speech and civilised politics free from fear and abuse. If those words really mean anything, Rosa Freedman’s case will outrage and appal MPs of all parties, who will want to debate its implications – and demand action to prevent such things ever recurring – at their earliest opportunity.

MPs and ministers have – quite rightly – taken time and trouble to debate and address the wholly unacceptable abuse and discrimination that transgender people sadly face all too often. In that, they were doing their jobs, representing the interests of people who need someone to speak for them.

Will that happen in the case of Rosa Freedman? Will MPs do their job and ensure that she can do hers without urine on her door and calls in the night telling her she should be raped and killed? Don’t bet on it. After all, she’s only a woman, and who cares about them? Who speaks for them? "

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/12/women-are-abused-in-the-name-of-trans-rights-but-do-mps-care/

worth reading JK's articles Eve for balanced, in-depth and well researched journalism

James Kirkup has also spent time on Mumsnet FWR (reading & reflecting before investigating further)

March 2018 he wrote, 'Fear and loathing grips the gender debate'
(extract)
"Some of these women are political activists and professionals, but some are, to use a clumsy term, ordinary people, women who never gave much thought to politics until they stumbled across this issue through questions about swimming pool changing rooms, Girl Guides safeguarding policies, or Mumsnet. Now aware of – and worried about – politics, they believe they should speak about their worries, but fear what will happen if they do.

Why? Well, as I’ve written before, the debate around gender is poisonous, nasty and even violent. Online conversation can turn extremely hostile when someone questions the orthodoxy on transgender issues – or is simply perceived to have done so: some people have written some venomous things about JK Rowling because she “liked” a tweet some saw as transphobic. Neither celebrity nor the facts (she hit the like button by accident) are any defence from the mob.

Real-world encounters can be nastier still: Judith Green wrote here about organising Woman’s Place UK meetings for “gender critical” women. The video here, meanwhile, shows what happened to a female trade unionist who had attended one of those meetings; it seems she was identified as attending and then targeted for mob abuse when she stood on a picket line some days later. That aggression wasn’t unique; one accusation of assault is before the courts, arising from an incident following protests against a meeting where feminists gathered to debate gender laws.

Other stories in this area involve women who speak out using their own names getting abusive messages at home and at work. In both the public and private sectors, being accused of transphobic bigotry is no small matter, and even many people who know they are doing nothing more than asking questions about an issue of public interest feel reluctant to risk being tarnished with such accusations, no matter how baseless they may be. (For real-world examples of this, see Mumsnet) this thread is just the latest to pop up while I was writing this. There are too many others.) continues
blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/fear-and-loathing-grips-the-gender-debate/

current thread from Eve's screenshot with important background and developments:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3443107-Shocking-bullying-of-gender-critical-law-professor-Rosa-Freedman

Screenshots with Joss Prior's response

Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia
Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia
Vice: how an online forum for moms became a toxic hotbed of transphobia
LikeDust · 07/12/2018 10:08

Which thread did Marc Almond comment on?

Sorry it was Joss Prior - easy to get the two mixed up until JP starts moving and you realise it's just looks they share - not charisma!

deepwatersolo · 07/12/2018 10:10

Not once in that whole article is there any consideration that gender critical feminists might have one or two good points. It just accuses of us hate speech and slyly links us to a murderer who used Gab. A more balanced article would have looked at GC ideas even if it disagreed with them.

What do you expect. These people, including the journalist, lack the self-awareness to realize that not being able to in any way define the key word they center in their TWAW fight is nothing but testament of their intellectual bankruptcy.

This is irredeemable stupidity at work here with this journalist just like the rest of these people. They feel something is wrong, dissonant but can't put their finger on it, so they externalize this feeling of their own inadequacy, smearing the people who see through them.

Jesus, how can you say 'transwomen are women' if you can't even define what a woman is. PEAK STUPIDITY.

VeggyGravy · 07/12/2018 10:17

She seems to be a queen of the Non binary side smile, this Eve. I've grown to not trust anyone doing it.

VeggyGravy · 07/12/2018 10:20

Btw Eve if you're monitoring us, Hi! And FYI, "biological essentialism" is so much less offensive than "lady brain essentialism".

Woman must have a vagina VS woman must have lady thoughts. Emily Davison didn't throw herself in front of a horse for this.

Also I hate to assume your race, but you're looking kind of pale yourself kid.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 07/12/2018 10:22

Here you go, HerFemaleness.

Ooooh, I need this recipe in my life. Does anyone have it?

This is not my recipe, a lovely MNetter shared it some months ago. I have forgotten her name, but her recipe is as she wrote it.

“Mince Pie Vodka

Ingredients:
70cl bottle vodka (don’t use anything expensive, a cheapy does fine)
250g dark muscovado sugar
250g caster sugar
100g mixed peel
250g sultanas
250g raisins
rind and juice of half orange
rind and juice of half lemon
2 tsp almond extract
2tsp vanilla extract
6 cloves
2 heaped tsp ground cinnamon
1 level tsp ground ginger
1level tsp freshly grated nutmeg
1 level tsp allspice

Also a 2 litre kilner jar or similar. A bowl would be okay, just stir rather than shake! Cover bowl to avoid too much evaporation of the good stuff.

Method: Just put all ingredients into the jar and shake once a day every day for the next 2 weeks. I left mine for much longer - it gets thicker and more syrupy the longer you leave it. You might need to top it up with more vodka…..

Then strain contents into a bowl through a fine sieve or muslin and put the liquid in a bottle and seal.

Don't waste the leftover fruit - take the cloves out to avoid crunchy surprises, then use it to make mince pies, serve with cream . . . or anything else you can think of. Keeps indefinitely due to high alcohol content! It’s particularly nice with cooking apples in a pie or crumble..mmmmmm”

LangCleg · 07/12/2018 10:23

If you make damson gin...when you strain out the damsons - save them and mix them into a flapjack mix and bake. They may need some chopping. Totally awesome flapjacks emerge just in time for the festive season.

This is the best idea I have ever heard in my life.

HerFemaleness · 07/12/2018 10:26

Thank you, Dancelike. Think I'll just toddle off to Aldi soon for some ingredients.

Badstyley · 07/12/2018 10:38

Ooh that sounds good, shame I don’t do vodka, bad experience when young.

Another yamyam mom checking in from my toxic sickbed. I am rather hot though, got the window open. My DP, who is a brummy, not a yamyam, but still has, or at least had a mom although isn’t one herself, and is certainly not working class but could be described as t*rfy and definitely white, pours hot water over weetabix, then tips it back off and puts milk on, then sometimes bananas as well. I’m partial to a banana sandwich myself, which doesn’t involve weetabix but might be controversial on here nevertheless.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2018 10:40

Ooh that sounds good, shame I don’t do vodka, bad experience when young.

I'd guess it would work with other spirits with similar alcohol levels?

Badstyley · 07/12/2018 10:41

DP not middle class, sorry. Definitely not middle class.

ErrolTheDragon · 07/12/2018 10:44

I’m partial to a banana sandwich myself, which doesn’t involve weetabix but might be controversial on here nevertheless.

The only controversy there is surely cinnamon or nutmeg? I mean, you could make your banana sandwich plain, but really it should be toast, butter, mix cinnamon into the melting butter, banana. And chop the banana in half then slice lengthwise to get bigger slices which are less likely to fall out.

Ereshkigal · 07/12/2018 10:46

She seems to be a queen of the Non binary side smile, this Eve.

Agree.

VickyEadie · 07/12/2018 10:47

The people who write the claptrap in this article cannot be unaware of the ironic projection they're indulging in - that they accuse FWR posters of 'hatred' when all the evidence of hatred comes from the TRA/MRA side who (a) utterly refuse ever to engage in any sort of discussion of things that (quite reasonably) concern women and (b) routinely throw at us the kinds of abuse, threats, accusations and increasing amounts of actual violence (peeing on an academic's door, for example).

That we are the 'toxic' ones would be laughable were it not tacitly accepted and encouraged by far too many people who really should know better and ought to be thoroughly ashamed of themselves.

Ereshkigal · 07/12/2018 10:53

We're standing in the way of transactivists being given all that they demand without question, a set of demands which flies in the face of decency and common sense, let alone women's rights.

R0wantrees · 07/12/2018 10:59

The people who write the claptrap in this article cannot be unaware of the ironic projection they're indulging in - that they accuse FWR posters of 'hatred' when all the evidence of hatred comes from the TRA/MRA side who (a) utterly refuse ever to engage in any sort of discussion of things that (quite reasonably) concern women and (b) routinely throw at us the kinds of abuse, threats, accusations and increasing amounts of actual violence (peeing on an academic's door, for example).

The Women's Hour podcasts on Sex & Gender would be a good place to start.
first episode:
'Why has the current debate about women’s rights and transgender rights become so difficult? It has been marked by aggressive confrontation, routine no-platforming and competing claims of misogyny and transphobia. How can and should we balance free speech with the competing rights of different groups? And how do we go about resolving these tensions? Jane Garvey hears from Bex Stinson, Head of Trans Inclusion at Stonewell and, Helen Lewis, Associate Editor of the New Statesman and honorary fellow in Women and the Humanities at the University of Oxford'

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06sbjp4

noteworthy that Bex Stinson, a senior employee at Stonewall refused to be part of a live discussion with Jane Garvey and Helen Lewis. Stonewall is a very influential lobby organisation and charity which receives public funds.
My Dad (70+) heard this and thought Bex Stinson 'bloody ridiculous' for refusing to discuss with the 'very reasonable' Helen Lewis. As he said 'no good comes' when things can't be discussed and scrutinised.
He's now catching up with the rest of the professors!

JackyHolyoake · 07/12/2018 10:59

Badstyley I am guessing that "yamyam" means Black Country?

Waving to you from the same place.

R0wantrees · 07/12/2018 11:02

We're standing in the way of transactivists being given all that they demand without question, a set of demands which flies in the face of decency and common sense, let alone women's rights.

These were exactly the points my dear Dad made (in that order)

merrymouse · 07/12/2018 11:10

If you make damson gin...when you strain out the damsons - save them and mix them into a flapjack mix

How do you identify damsons? I have seen loads of fruit that I think are damsons this year, but nobody else seems to be picking them so I am not sure if they are damsons. (Honestly no subtext about identity here, I just want to know about damsons!)

BlytheSpiritsSpirit · 07/12/2018 11:13

I thought damsons were just small plums.

sackrifice · 07/12/2018 11:18

How do you identify damsons? I have seen loads of fruit that I think are damsons this year, but nobody else seems to be picking them so I am not sure if they are damsons. (Honestly no subtext about identity here, I just want to know about damsons!)

If they are about now, then you are likely to be looking at sloes. If there are long pointy thorns on the plant, then that's them.

If you mean earlier in the year, then you can usually identify them by pulling them apart, if there is a stone then it is likely to be a plum, damson, cherry plum or bullace etc...any of which are fine for making fruity alcohols etc and in flapjacks for the festive season.

ILuvBirdsEye · 07/12/2018 11:19

Badstyley - hot water on the weetabix? Pack him off to the gulag!!

sackrifice · 07/12/2018 11:20

Sorry it was Joss Prior - easy to get the two mixed up until JP starts moving and you realise it's just looks they share - not charisma!

Lol you fucker!

merrymouse · 07/12/2018 11:21

This was earlier in the year at blackberry time - next year I will look for the stone. Thanks Smile

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