Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1070231803087200256?s=21

Debbie, you have the perfect opportunity in front of you to push back the frontiers of what it is to be an out and proud feminine-presenting male by setting an example.

So what's the difference between that and the wider world? (rhetorical question) Is it possible to differentiate between a post-op TS with hormone levels in the female range, and a bloke who gets sexually excited by going into women's spaces? If not TS people are in deep trouble.

The point is that we (women) can’t tell. Most TW will be read as male because of build, posture etc however much effort they’ve put into passing and will be ‘on the woman’s radar’. Most women will not make their disconfort obvious a) because there’s a certain type of male who gets off on that and b) having noted something is “off” and pinging her radar, will want to exit the situation safely.

kesstrel

Lots of people are using Debbie as an example of a male transperson who should be welcomed into women's space. As a person whose needs are greater than the needs of women and girls to have sex segregation.

I'm questioning that. Why is one male transperson allowed to be in women's spaces, but other aren't? What's the criteria? How do we let some in, keep others out and maintain our dignity and safety?

Think: transsexual vs transvestite. That’s your starting point.

Think: transsexual vs transvestite. That’s your starting point.

By sight, what's the difference?

I'm thinking of all of the male transpeople I know and know of, and I haven't a clue who is a transvestite and who is a transsexual.

Why do women and girls lose the dignity and safety for transsexuals, but not for transvestites?

This really highlights how bad self ID is for transsexuals

Before we all assumed any in our spaces had lost the penis and couldn't rape us plus having major surgery, weeded out those who were just wanting to invade female spaces

Now women are suspicious as we don't know who is and who isn't

Its pretty clear we now need to pursue third spaces as the only workable solution that provides for the safety of all concerned and balances competing needs. The current ‘honour’ system is broken beyond repair and the trust is gone.

Is it possible to differentiate between a post-op TS with hormone levels in the female range, and a bloke who gets sexually excited by going into women's spaces? If not TS people are in deep trouble.

I'm not sure if this question was rhetorical. Because the answer certainly, is no. Or rather, not without a significant amount of observation, analysis and conjecture.

And that's the problem, Debbie. Perhaps you can tell, fairly swiftly. If they are incredibly overt, then I could probably tell.

But again, it's expecting women to make a dodgy risk assessment, in a situation that experience has told them, is inherently risky already. I.e. when they are vulnerable. Whilst they are trying on clothes, changing menstrual products, weeing, etc. It's still entitled behaviour. And it's very obvious even if one doesn't have the words to describe it. Most women's comfort level would drop instantly.

I would be interested to know what words you would use to describe you using the gents. Perhaps not at work, where you are well-known. But elsewhere.

The current ‘honour’ system is broken beyond repair and the trust is gone.

Sadly I think this is true - the introduction of the GRA and most recent consultation along with the inclusion of so much into the T who were excluded before has actually eroded the trust

meaning a new solution needs to be come up with

We just aren't able to go back to where we were before

The easiest place to use the gents is at work, surely? The full weight of HR would be brought to bear - quite rightly - if any of male colleagues stepped out of line. That would be walking the walk rather than talking the talk.

Is it possible to differentiate between a post-op TS with hormone levels in the female range, and a bloke who gets sexually excited by going into women's spaces? If not TS people are in deep trouble.

A male who has gender dysphoria and has taken medication to block testosterone as well as taking cross sex hormones and having one or more plastic surgeries has hormone levels within the range expected by these interventions for their sex.

Just as a male with some specific cancer diagnosis who has had surgeries and medical interventions invoving hormones, chemotherapy etc will have hormone levesl within the range expected for their sex following such treatment.

Some of these may be more comparable to the average female levels than male. This doesn't make them women/females any more than the man who has had radical treatments for his cancer.

'A bloke who gets excited by going into women spaces' (as described in quote) can identify as a woman, expect her female colleagues to share intimate spaces, report hatecrime if her preferred pronouns are not used, change the sex marker to 'F' on a passport, if convicted of a crime requiring imprisonment be placed in female estate, have that crime be recorded as committed by a woman, use 'single sex' female accommodation (wards/showers) in NHS hospitals, stand on 'all women's shortlists' etc Whilst describing her that way might earn me a deletion /strike on Mumsnet if reported.

Transwomen such as this don't need a GRC to do these things as its not neccessary.

Tara Hewitt (TELI, NHS, Social Care & Higher Education consultant) training session for Health Care Professionals:

'Trans People and Cancer Session'

So what's the difference between that and the wider world? (rhetorical question) Is it possible to differentiate between a post-op TS with hormone levels in the female range, and a bloke who gets sexually excited by going into women's spaces? If not TS people are in deep trouble.

Firstly, acknowledging you're here in good faith and this is a fucking difficult journey you're on in terms of honest debate positioning, Debbie. You know that I like you a great deal on a personal level.

I sit at the point of effective safeguarding. Even if we ignore all the arguments about privacy, dignity, survivor trauma triggers and all the rest of it, we still come back to effective safeguarding. And it is a truism about this that safeguarding must be robust, sceptical and never allow any exploitable chinks or loopholes. Because the malign will see them, push at them and never stop trying to find a way in through them. Sex segregation is the only answer to this, as never allowing a child to make confidential disclosure to even a well-meaning adult is a necessary plank of child protection.

If it weakens safeguarding, I'm against it. And that counts for situations that suit me (sex segregation) and those that don't (keeping the secret of a child I know is in trouble and wish to help).

All that said, I wish you only the best, Debbie, as always.

I’m just listening on catch up having read to page 7 here so far and listened closely to the point Nick raised about transmen and attacks. I think it was a clever slight of hand actually. The discussion was around attacks on women in unisex spaces, with the fact that most of these are carried out by men and transwomen (or those claiming to be who are indistinguishable from the genuine ones) but the point Nick made was about transmen. For anyone less familiar with the language of this issue it would be easy to interpret that as men who identify as trans, rather than women who identify as men, the sleight of hand being that we’re not talking about transmen but transwomen.

Poppyred85

I agree about the sleight of hand remarks. Those remarks help keep the debate away from the rights of girls and women and to the wants and needs of transpeople.

I think most people will hear that as a slip of the tongue and think of someone male.

Yy I thought he slipped up...

Accidently referred to them as men

With regards to ts v tv - how do you tell?

I have actually been made to feel uncomfortable by someone I knew had their penis inverted.

They seemed like quite a messed up, damaged person and I felt pity for that, but having them beside me in the next cubicle with no one else in the ladies made me feel uncomfortable. As did them towering over me with an obvious adult male physique (though they seemed to have a lot of anxiety and discomfort about this).

I have been pretty Beryl-y in my life, but I did not feel I should put my own needs last. I felt very angry and defensive. I felt incensed this person felt entitled to use women's spaces because they hate their male body. It's taking liberties. Its not my issue, I have my own stuff to deal with, as do other women.

Who do these males think they are? Expecting women to deal with their body dysmorphia? It is not my issue. Find some other way of dealing with it without making it my issue please.

I am one person who never consented to an honour system. I don't gaf if it's broken.

Debbie has been on a journey and i believe has been coming to the conclusion that males being in female spaces is a bad idea. I think Debbie understands this now but they’re only human and using the women’s loos is easier and suits Debbie and makes their life easier. I think Debbie is conflicted about this. I also know eat too much chocolate or drink too much even though i know I shouldn’t. Life isn’t always rational and neat and tidy.

I'm not sure where the idea if the honour system came from, I was never asked and never consented.

I assume in the past, male transpeople wouldn't push their luck in women's spaces, because they knew they would stand out and be at risk of being exposed and removed.

But the boundaries have been push, not only with the definition of what it is to be trans, but what women spaces they expect to be included in. There is a world of difference debenhams loos and a communal changing room, a psychiatric ward and a prison. As well as sports and career opportunities for women.

Societal risk assessments will be difficult as women are used to making their own on a day to day basis. Walking along the street in the dark: do you have your keys in your hand; have your bag strap over the opposite shoulder; gauge the behaviour of the group of young men before deciding to cross the road; deliberately walk behind someone who looks "safe".

Gyms and changing rooms add a different element of privacy and dignity. Culterally Brits tend to be more prudish and body conscious than, say, Germans. I belong to a gym in a smart London hotel with single sex communal changing rooms. The extent to which I do the towel dance depends on who else is there. The gym gives good discounts to staff at the hospital opposite and I often can't be faffed to be too private when with ordinary women. I felt a lot more body concious on the day the hotel hosted some sort of Miss Universe competition and the changing room was full of extraordinarily leggy and long women. I would probably be equally discrete/uncomfortable should a post surgery transexual enter, but accept that body dymorphia exists. I would be a lot more uncomfortable, and walk out and complain if there were a non discrete male bodied person there. And since the Stonewall umbrella is so wide, this could happen.

But equally I could see DH being equally uncomfortable if what he would perceive as a naked woman were in the male changing room. Gay men are in the conversation, as are confident media men, but not man-in-the-street men.

The conversation keeps on being about safety, but dignity is also important. And no one is talking about the elderly when dignity is one of the few things left to offer.

I also know eat too much chocolate or drink too much even though i know I shouldn’t.

When I over eat, the only person I damage is myself.

When a male person is using female facilities they are harming women and girls. They are also opening the door to allow every male person access to those women and girls.

I do think a lot of people come at this from a validation angle rather than from a needs angle and that's half the problem

Men don't understand that female spaces are out of a need - both to use a facility and also a need to feel safe

We never came up with them purely to validate that we are women, quite the opposite really - we acknowledged that we were not men and therefore weren't safe sometimes

It's an acknowledgement that we actually aren't equal rather than a demand to be equal I think why we've got female only spaces in the world

Excellent post Needmoresleep.

I'm sure if I asked DH what he thought a towel dance was, he'd have no idea. He certainly hasn't done one.

Men are clueless about women's vulnerability. Except those who exploit it...