Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

[MrsSnippyPants]

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1070231803087200256?s=21

Regarding DebbieInBirmingham - something about this whole issue that has exploded in the last decade, is that people I thought were lefties and feminists like me have been talking a lot of horseshit. Lots of people with pretty right wing views which make me gasp and religious people I'd normally tiptoe around are talking sense.

This has been a period of growth for me, where I've had to re-assess how I classify people and how much disagreement and difference I can have with someone and still like and admire them.

So with regard to you Debbie I disagree about the inclusion of TS in women's spaces, but that is not personal. It is valuable that you have been open and engaging. I feel pathos because your path is a slightly solitary one at the moment - not quite fitting into any camps. I can sense you are doing a bit of a Gandhi to get through it and I think this will win in the end.

And of course - thanks to all you amazing others, mainly women, who keep engaging and holding fast to the truth. I am feeling increasingly optimistic.

I do think a lot of people come at this from a validation angle rather than from a needs angle and that's half the problem

Ah, the V word - so often the elephant in the room, isn't it? And the reason there's no real clamour for a third space.

Yes. Validation. I can't express how furious I am that males abuse women as a class for validation.

The goddamned entitlement of it.

Yep. I think if validation wasn't the driving motivation to be included in women's spaces or men's spaces by trans people... third space would be attractive

Third space fills a need to use a facility and a need to be safe... which is just the same as what women did - acknowledging that we aren't the same or equal

Dr Julia Long discusses the importance of female spaces, beyond reasons of safety, dignity & privacy:

'Transgenderism & Lesbian Erasure'

It would really validate that trans women are MORE similar to women imo if they were advocating and fighting for third space

It's not what we are seeing though

Cecily, your question is way upthread now but not sure anyone answered it yet.

Matthew Wright engaged on Twitter about that assault a few weeks back and said he was talking about another, earlier, dreadful assault on a man by two young women, I think teenage girls actually, who were definitely women. I haven't got the link just now but I think they kicked/stamped the victim to death, so this was legitimate evidence that women are sometimes violent.

That crime shouldn't be minimized but I don't think MW wanted to get into it about the statistics on how much rarer it nonetheless is for women to commit those types of crime.

Datun...thanks.

I have started looking at women in the street and noting how few meet the gender ideal touted in ads, on social media and elsewhere. There are lots of invisible women, who just get on with life: work; have jobs; support friends and family and so on.

Like most of them I am aware of my physical shortcomings. I am two stone (at least) overweight, and only go to the gym because the physio I see for back pain has nagged me into it. I am not worried. I have a good life and am very lucky. And indeed feel lucky not to have invested too much of my self esteem into how I look.

But there are times when I want privacy and dignity. And dont see why I should give this up without debate, just to validate someone else.

I don't have anything against TWs or gay men. How they live their lives is up to them, and diversity makes life more interesting. But cannot accept their assumed right to speak on my behalf, and to dismiss my small, and not unreasonable, wants.

I am POA for my mother who has Alzheimers so completed the GRA questionaire on her behalf. That was an eye opener. She has so little, bar dignity, and those caring for the elderly will confirm that there are a host of issues around loss of filters and hypersexuality. Virtually no one is talking about women's right to dignity (and perceptions of safety) and even fewer mention the needs of the most vulnerable.

I also appreciate that you are here debbieinbrimingham engaging with us personally.

Re speaking up, the problem is that if a woman already feels uncomfortable and intimidated because someone is demonstrating that they lack awareness and empathy and adherence to the social norms of good behaviour, be that a bully of any sort, or a male using female spaces, then it is a bit of a red flag in itself and often the last thing it feels wise to do is speak up at that moment.

A lot of us have no expectation at all, that as if by the sheer magic of objecting that the person will suddenly see the error of their ways and start acting reasonably and considerately. It often doesn't work with simple things like asking people to not park across your driveway FFS, never mind women's myriad bad experiences of asking men to stop being sexist or harmful when they are in the midst of doing it.

And as far as trying to assess which males are a risk and which are not, bloody hell its tiring and wearing to have to do that all the time as we do anyway, and we are not mind readers. It is no wonder so many women develop PTSD or become risk averse. Even psychiatrists can get it wrong or be fooled. Often you don't even know a man when you have known them for years but then enter a relationship, or marry and they turn out to be abusive, or not what you thought. Not referencing your situation personally Debbie obviously, I am sure many of us have experienced that and the relationships board shows as much. We become wary of men for good reason not because we are wrongly and ignorantly prejudiced and make stuff up.

Likewise, no one can know whether anyone else is a post op transsexual or not, but have to take their word for it. It is just another way for women as individuals to have to bear the brunt of the difficult and worrying decisions and the risks. I'm so very tired of it.

Totally agree that robust and impersonal safeguarding procedures are the only way to make this work with public situations for women and children as a whole. We should all share in the work of making these tough but protective and caring decisions, including males.

Yes indieshuffle

Just thinking about the physiogical turmoil I go through when I need to assert myself or defending boundaries where someone is being inconsiderate - it is fight or flight stuff, because you have no idea of how they will react. The fact they already overstepped a boundary i thought was explicit is a big red flag. My heart races, my head pounds, my ears burn, my throat tightens.

We know that when we assert ourselves there is always the possibility that the person could say no. If you push it they could say "I'd like to see you try and make me", if you still push it could mean a fight and physical injury and every woman knows who is going to come off worse if the person is either an adolescent or adult male.

That's one thing that is nice about male free spaces. An absence of male domination.

Physiological!

One thing discussed on the programme is the change to passports. This somewhat concerns me and would appreciate input

Debbie said that it was an admin thing to change your passport to having a F marker.

Does this mean when you go to another country in practice you will be regarded as a woman and able to use female facilities. This is then self ID for overseas travel.

I know Debble a differentiation regarding passport change as being different to self ID but I didnt quite catch it.

Also a passport is often used almost as an ID card so again any man could change their passport and then use it as female ID. Worrying to me

Yes. It is important that identity docs show your actual sex for a number of reasons.

I think there should be an added extra character to indicate a person presents as the opposite sex to avoid confusion/embarrassment at airports, banks, etc.

Also a passport is often used almost as an ID card so again any man could change their passport and then use it as female ID. Worrying to me

The CBBC program 'I Am Leo', showed how significant for Leo's validation of their gender identity was the change in sex marker from F to M in their passport. I think this may have set a precedent due to Leo's age so absence of any medical interventions and the 'transition' being at that point only social. Leo uses the passport as 'proof' that they are a boy:

I'm sceptical of the number of transpeople who have changed their passport and driver's license and use it as id. Isn't there a risk it could be seen as fake?

debbieinbirmingham
I've been thinking about the interview and this thread.
I've worked in schools so do believe its possible that you may have had genuine consent & invitation from your female colleagues into female intimate spaces etc.

What happens though elsewhere? Your female colleagues may not individually have objected but they are not and do not represent 'everywoman'. Indeed it may well have been significant that they had known you for many years prior to your 'meaningful transition'.

Women in other female intimate public spaces do not have that opportunity.

In highlighting how for you and perhaps your colleagues it was important that you were invited, I wonder how you (& others similarly minded) square situations when it would be impossible to guage beforehand women's reactions to finding they are sharing intimate female spaces with a TS male?

Yes. The only way to be certain women are okay with it is if there are two clearly marked spaces in close proximity.
On one door it is "women" the other door "women and transsexuals".
If a male transsexual goes in the latter space they know that all the women there actively chose it because they were aware of an alternative single sex space but didn't opt for it.

In any other scenario it is impossible to gage consent before entering.

Rowan exactly.

This summer I saw security at Tooting Lido bar a random man with a camera and without swimming kit. Self-Id would mean that if "she" were sensible enough to bring swimming stuff, "she" would be able to enter the communal women's changing rooms and watch 8 year old girls shower and change.

I am sure Debbie can understand why this should not happen.

And FWIW peepholes have been carved into almost all the individual changing huts. I once saw an eye peering through. The temptation was to poke it. You find some odd people in Tooting.

And FWIW peepholes have been carved into almost all the individual changing huts. I once saw an eye peering through. The temptation was to poke it. You find some odd people in Tooting.

You've reminded me of our primary school changing hut!

This was the case there, the girls used to block the hole with tissue paper but had to do this repeatedly.

Well those boys have grown up and moved to Tooting...

I despair of this debate I really do. Debbie gets massive flak from both sides, just don't get why people take a pop at her on here. I thought the issue was self ID, ie, that people who DON'T have genuine gender dysphoria could access safe spaces under the guise of self declaration. But if we are going to deny any trans person, who feels trans but wants to debate and listen to a range of women's voices, their identity then I am not on board. Trans people have been using women's spaces for decades, with a mutual respect and agreement, which is exactly what Debbie and others are trying to do. The balance, in my opinion, has changed, because of the aggressively misogynistic voices shouting down the anyone concerned about the potential abuses of self id as transphobia. If Debbie and others like her, who have been living as transwomen/men for many years, stick their head above the parapet to listen and empathise with women's concerns, to be told their identities aren't valid, then the belief that trans people feel erased by this debate is bloody valid.

Still happens at our primary school changing hut, R0wantrees. The little boys find it hilarious, the girls not so much.

Welcome to FWR, AdamBede.

just don't get why people take a pop at her on here

I suggest reading the thread and then perhaps you can either agree or disagree with what women are actually saying instead of telling them what they are saying when it's not what they are saying.

Debbie does this, so I am unsure what favours you think you are doing Debbie by not managing this relatively simple task yourself.

HTH

Much earlier in the thread I posted about Matthem Wright losing his show because of supporting the right of women to say that a trans woman is someone born male - but had not time to post links. Here is one www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/showbiz-tv/matthew-wright-quit-wright-stuff-14603357

I posted in haste and realise I didn't make the real point which is that yet again what had been a space where gender critical voices could be (sometimes) heard has been lost. Although maybe his radio show has a larger audience than the C5 show did.

I suppose it is no wonder that someone who has been through the BBC inhouse training on trans inclusion should have taken over the show with no qualms.