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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

406 replies

MrsSnippyPants · 05/12/2018 10:18

twitter.com/debbiehayton/status/1070231803087200256?s=21

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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R0wantrees · 05/12/2018 19:40

For example, whilst I may know with absolute certainty that I pose no individual safety risk to a child, there will be circumstances where it would be innapropriate to be in some 1:1 situations as an adult teacher alone with a child.

R0wantrees · 05/12/2018 19:47

The point about my female colleaguss is valid. Even if all of them say they are happy, how do I know they aren't just saying that, perhaps to avoid the issue? Might some of them be - say - 75% OK. Would that be enough.

Would new staff members, female visitors etc have any ability say otherwise?
Also as with any issue of consent surely it is not a blanket agreement but must allow a person to withdraw it?

Macareaux · 05/12/2018 20:26

While I'm of the purist or hard line persuasion that there should be no exceptions when it comes to men accessing women's spaces I would like to commend Debbie for undeniably furthering the debate and also for an observable personable shift in views in the light of comments made by women.

Did Nick actually say he was the only man in the debate? When it was three men and one woman.

This was a good programme and would have been unimaginable a year ago.

There is still a lot of shit being claimed though. No way do a majority of Scottish women support self ID. Not when they know what it means. Also we have to realise that half the population probably think a transwoman is a woman becoming a man.

OlennasWimple · 05/12/2018 20:30

I've been security / background checked a gazillion times and know that I pose no risk. But still accept that there are some situations - such as when I forget to bring the right ID with me, or while checks are being re-done - that mean I cannot fully participate in certain activities until I can demonstrate recent, satisfactory checks. I know it's not personal - everyone is treated in the same way.

Doobigetta · 05/12/2018 20:43

While I'm of the purist or hard line persuasion that there should be no exceptions when it comes to men accessing women's spaces I would like to commend Debbie for undeniably furthering the debate and also for an observable personable shift in views in the light of comments made by women.

^This. It’s quite unusual ime to see someone (regardless of sex) be so honest and willing to admit a change of position. It’s admirable.

NotAnotherFeckingMuftiDay · 05/12/2018 21:52

I'm also of the persuasion that there should be no men in women's spaces. Whilst Debbie's collegues may be happy to share their spaces with Debbie as they don't find Debbie threatening, what happens when fellow staff member "pervy-Barry" decides he's going to self ID as a woman and then demand to use women's spaces.

As Debbie is already in the women's spaces it becomes almost impossible to keep "pervy-Barry" out.
Risk assessing on a case by case basis simply won't work as how can an employer let one be included in women's spaces but not the other?

JackyHolyoake · 05/12/2018 22:09

What these males need to be doing is talking with other men to negotiate their way into men's spaces. Instead they assert their male conditioning and impose themselves on females regardless of any consent.

Why is it that the discomfort of these men supersedes and eradicates the the discomfort of females?

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 05/12/2018 22:11

Notanotherfeckingday - yes this exactly.

There would be no reasonable grounds to object to Barry. And Barry could (and probably would if of the TRA persuasion) sue and most likely win (it's not his fault that he's an unknown quality etc)

Debbie - thank you for today and your clear insightful analysis in the media on this.

Whilst I don't agree that a coherent position can be made on individual risk assessments, I have a huge amount of respect for you coming on here and engaging with different points of view - even when it must sometimes be hard. I very much admire your integrity on this 💐

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 05/12/2018 22:30

Also, given the number of middle age male transitioners, it's likely that they will hold positions of authority within a company. They may be the women's magager, or are the ones influencing policy.

Male transpeople using female spaces in the workplace need to be aware of how enthusiastic the consent is.

NotAnotherFeckingMuftiDay · 05/12/2018 22:40

ZuttZeVoot
I hadn't thought about the aspect of middle aged male managers transitioning and the power dynamics involved there which makes consent from junior female staff meaningless. SadAngry

Those transwomen who are acting in good faith but continuing to use women's spaces (possibly with explicit consent) should be aware that their presence in women's spaces makes excluding the pervy-Barry types nearly impossible.

Even if they themselves are no direct threat (if you don''t factor in loss of privacy), their presence opens women up to being compelled to share their intimate spaces with dangerous men like pervy-Barry who choose to abuse self-ID.

R0wantrees · 05/12/2018 22:45

refers to excellent comprehensive article (worth reading in full):

'The New Patriarchy: How Trans Radicalism Hurts Women, Children—and Trans People Themselves'
written by Helen Joyce
(extract)
“I knew by the time I was eight that I didn’t want to be a boy,” says Melissa. “But I didn’t know what I wanted to be.” Born in a provincial English town in the early 1970s and brought up by evangelical Christians, the boy had never heard of a transsexual (a term that was widely used in the decades before “transgender” entered common usage in the 1990s). As for gay men, “they were all going to hell.” As soon as he could, he moved to London and “experimented,” presenting himself as a man at work and a woman in the evenings. In the early 2000s, his gender dysphoria—the distress caused by the feeling that your body is the wrong sex—came to a head. “The thought of being buried as an old man became simply unbearable.”

But even as Melissa came to that bleak realization, a new future for her was opening up. Britain, like many other countries, was planning to grant gender-dysphoric people a route to legal recognition as members of the opposite sex. Under the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) of 2004, after a psychological evaluation and two years presenting themselves in their preferred sex role, they could change the sex on their birth certificates. Melissa, who takes female hormones and has undergone surgery to refashion her genitals into a female form, is now legally a woman. “People take me for what they see,” she says. “That’s all I’ve ever wanted.”

The motive for such laws was largely compassion. Gender dysphoria was viewed as a rare and distressing condition that could be alleviated by accommodating sufferers as legal exceptions to the rules of biology. But a decade and a half later, a more radical notion is sweeping across the Western world, with English-speaking countries in the vanguard. The brainchild of a few sexologists, trans-activists and academics, it has spread via lobby groups and the internet, and on liberal campuses. It is now becoming consolidated in practice and codified into law, with profound consequences—not just for people who wish they had been born the opposite sex, but for everyone." (continues)

"Far more women will be affected by the trend towards self-ID for single-sex spaces. For public toilets, gym changing rooms, women-only swimming sessions and the like, women who do not want to disrobe in mixed company may decide to opt out. Some have a strong preference for privacy; others have religious reasons. Rosa Freedman, a human-rights lawyer and Orthodox Jew, points out that her beliefs, and those of many Muslim women, mean she cannot use such spaces if the sexes mix.

Others are fearful for their safety. Though no reasonable person thinks most trans women (or men for that matter) are violent or rapists, most violent crimes are committed by males. There is no evidence that simply identifying as a woman means a male should be regarded as lower-risk. Women therefore have reason to be wary of biological males, including trans women, in situations where they are vulnerable. Many women also worry that predatory men will profess to identify as women in order to gain access to spaces where women are exposed." (continues)

current thread with link to article:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3443610-Comprehensive-article-by-Helen-Joyce-Economists-Finance-Editor-The-New-Patriarchy-How-Trans-Radicalism-Hurts-Women-Children-and-Trans-People-Themselves

Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**
Badmoonsarising · 06/12/2018 02:09

Lol, who are they trying to fool - only my opinion of course, I’m sure some really believe that Pink News guy actually came across rationally.

Debbie Hayton and Posie Parker on Matthew Wright, TalkRadio between 1pm and 2pm **Thread title edited by MNHQ**
incallthebloodytime · 06/12/2018 02:56

Honestly- I personally would have no problem with Debbie in my female spaces but Debbie is honest about who she is and open and clearly understands that some women may feel nervous and uncomfortable without having any personal dig at Debbie but simply because of the fact she was born male. I imagine it might hurt Debbie but I can't imagine her demanding to use the bathroom at the same time as a woman who makes it clear she's uncomfortable since she's grasped the female socialisation thing of consideration of others feelings and therefore likely to adapt her behaviour temporarily to acknowledge the anxiety. I've assumed a lot, of course I don't know any of that... I just think it's pretty likely

Someone who is not open, honest or understanding and simply thinks that because they've transitioned I should get over it and so should anyone else - to me that demonstrates that they want to invade_ female space rather than that they want to be included_ by women

calpop · 06/12/2018 02:56

He didn't even say respect. He said expect. And he was very much on the back foot for the whole interview. More delusion.

Badmoonsarising · 06/12/2018 06:31

How many women or girls would feel confident enough to speak up and say they are uncomfortable?

DebbieInBirmingham · 06/12/2018 06:47

^ Before I transitioned I would not have even considered that. Now I do.

Going back to "Pervy Barry", I would use a bucket before facilitating such a situation among my real life friends and colleagues.

So what's the difference between that and the wider world? (rhetorical question) Is it possible to differentiate between a post-op TS with hormone levels in the female range, and a bloke who gets sexually excited by going into women's spaces? If not TS people are in deep trouble.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 06/12/2018 07:11

I don't want to make it personal about Debbie. But after being on here Debbie knows that many women are not happy about sharing space with any male transperson, Debbie knows that many women and girls are not confident to speak out (from women here, and Debbie's work with school girls). Yet Debbie continues to use female spaces.

Debbie hears that women and girls are saying no, says that is challenging and difficult, and continues the behaviour.

I'm not sure how Debbie is different to any other tra in the media? Even if Debbie is different, how do we 'include' Debbie, but stop others 'invading' our spaces?

We have female only spaces for a variety of reasons, why does the existence of gender dysphoria mean that those spaces should not exist?

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 06/12/2018 07:14

Sorry, expost with Debbie.

But, no. Practical there is no way of differentiating between the different types of transpeople.

kesstrel · 06/12/2018 07:31

I strongly disagree with the notion that Debbie is "not different from any other TRA". In fact, I disagree that Debbie is a "TRA", in the sense that that word is used on here, and I see no reason to call her that.

I personally am not on board with the kind of feminism that alienates all our allies, any more than I am in favour of Jeremy Corbyn's version of left-wing politics. It's diversionary and will get in the way of pushing back against the real TRAs.

Having transsexuals on our side and speaking out is of huge benefit, because it makes it much more difficult for TRAs to claim it's all about extremist feminists. I agree that we should not make this "personal", and am uncomfortable when threads take this line.

Thank you Debbie for speaking out so clearly.

ZuttZeVootEeeVro · 06/12/2018 07:34

How do you know that Debbie is a transsexual?

Debbie has described themselves as a tra.

TimeLady · 06/12/2018 07:43

I'm intrigued as to why you don't simply use the male facilities at work, Debbie. A cubicle there would be no different to a cubicle in the ladies. I can't imagine any of your male colleagues would give you any grief.

MsBeaujangles · 06/12/2018 07:46

I have never seen the driving license or insurance docs of friends or taxi drivers but I get on cars when they are driving.

Life would be impossible to navigate successfully if we required evidence for everything, or even statements or declarations.

There is a world of difference between someone like Debbie who is trying to find ways forward and those demanding everyone allows them to do as they please.

Often, dogmatic and inflexible positions taken by GC people mirror the dogmatic and inflexible nature of the TRAs.

BiologyMatters · 06/12/2018 07:52

I actually commend Debbie for saying that you now acknowledge that women are uncomfortable with males in their spaces and may even be uncomfortable with Debbie. That is a big step forward from a thread a few months ago when Debbie said that they were a self-identified transwoman in effect and didn't really seem to understand why women might be uncomfortable with Debbie in their space. Debbie has thought about it and taken it on board and has now raised it on the radio. Bravo Debbie.

kesstrel · 06/12/2018 07:52

Zut I'd respectfully suggest there are better ways of making the point than asking that question, if you genuinely "don't want to make it personal about Debbie".

FlippinFumin · 06/12/2018 08:05

I too don't like to make it personal against Debbie. From what I have read and seen, Debbie has been open to changing their opinion when they learn what makes women uncomfortable. I would say that is more of how a woman works than any of the TRA nonsense, they simply wish to colonise and care not about how women feel.

Having said all that, there are a million and one reasons I feel uncomfortable in bathrooms outside my home (mostly germs) and the thought of encountering men in there is another reason to avoid them and give my poor kidneys more grief.