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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shocking bullying of gender critical law professor (Rosa Freedman)

261 replies

ProfessionalBarren · 05/12/2018 07:29

Absolutely shocked (and wasn’t sure I still could be) by her thread this morning about the abuse she’s endured, including acts of physical intimidation, covert bullying and vandalism. twitter.com/GoonerProf/status/1070158128837246977?s=20 Fuckers.

OP posts:
Badgerthebodger · 06/12/2018 10:56

Have emailed Rosa and VC of Reading, plus emailed my MP

I’m absolutely disgusted. Rosa is incredibly strong that she continues despite the revolting bastards who are trying to silence her. Pissing on someone’s door is not a polite request for a debate.

arranbubonicplague · 06/12/2018 11:03

The analysis, by Dr Kath Murray, Lucy Hunter Blackburn and Lisa Mackenzie, said that so-called cognitive testing of the changes was done with two groups recruited exclusively from LGBT organisations. No participants were recruited via women’s groups.

Saw this in the Times piece. I'm unfamiliar with cognitive testing in this context. Can anyone enlighten me, please?

ChloeHouston79 · 06/12/2018 11:08

Hi everyone, I'm the colleague of Rosa's at Reading who tweeted about this yesterday and who was quoted in the BBC piece last night. I just wanted to respond to rightreckoner 's comment of 22:28:21 last night regarding my statement that Rosa has never said anything transexculsionary.

I regret how I phrased this statement in my original tweet. I meant that Rosa's feminism and activism is not transexclusionary, i.e. that she is not a transexclusionary or transphobic person, if that makes sense. I of course recognise that Rosa supports the exclusion of non-biologically female people from some female-only spaces, and I agree with her on that. So it's unfortunate that this sentence was what the Beeb chose to highlight, and I'll think more carefully about my phrasing from now on. The whole thing has been quite an experience.

I would also like to say that it's been very encouraging to read these boards. I've been a Mumsnetter for a long time (under a pseudonym obviously) and the views I've read here and the sense of community on these boards have been an influence on my own desire to go public on this issue. So thanks very much.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 11:17

ChewyLouie

I've seen a number of influential TRAs refer to Penny Mordant as Minister for Equalities (sans women) & am inclined to believe them in this case.

Over the summer Victoria Atkins MP (Minister for Women) voiced concerns about the steep rise in children seeking medical interventions following the questioning their gender identity. The government has announced there will be an enquiry.

In recent Westminster debate, her comments were reported by James Kirkup in Spectator article 21/11/2018:

'This MP has summed up everything wrong with the transgender debate'
(extract)
For new readers, this debate really boils down to who gets to be a woman. How should the law deal with people who are born male and retain a male body who identify themselves as a woman? Should they be able to gain the rights, entitlements and legal status of a woman on the basis of that self-identification? The government has consulted on changing the law to make it easier to legally change gender; some people support that, some people don’t. More of that in a minute.

If you’re interested in this stuff, you can read the whole Commons thing here , but for me there are a couple of things that stand out.

First, Victoria Atkins, the minister for women and equalities at the Home Office is a good thing, and someone surely heading for more senior ministerial office in due course. Ministerial responses to Westminster Hall debates are often boilerplate bromides written by officials and recited unthinkingly by the minister concerned. Atkins’ contribution was a lot better than that, and strongly suggests a minister who has taken the time to think critically about the issues (and actors) in an area where critical thinking has been painfully lacking.

Again, I don’t endorse everything Atkins said (I think she’s a tiny bit blasé about how effectively the Equality Act 2010’s single-sex exemptions are being implemented in everyday practice) but her general approach and tone were the right: it’s a complicated, contentious issue where loud voices on the extremes have drowned out and sometimes silenced legitimate questions.

Here are two eminently reasonable Atkins quotes that should be utterly uncontroversial but which are, in this context, refreshingly bold:

‘People are sometimes almost too scared to talk about things, which is not right. We do not want a climate of fear in the debate. We want people to be able to express their views respectfully and in a caring and careful manner, so that we ensure that questions are flushed out and answered.’

And:

‘I get asked about this issue regularly, and we all share a sense of sadness about the fact that this important debate sometimes gets taken over by loud and sometimes aggressive campaigning by activists. I am sure they hold their beliefs very strongly, but they perhaps lose sight of the fact that we have to be able to talk about this issue in a reasoned, respectful and caring fashion. The vast majority of the public—and, I am sure, parliamentarians—are in the middle. We want to talk about this issue in a caring and careful way so society gets to a position in which we are all comfortable with the consequences of the changes to legislation and so on.’

(NB: she didn’t identify those ‘activists’, which strikes me as a deft bit of politics, since it allows everyone to conclude that she was talking about Other People and not them.)

And since I was earlier this year very angry that the Commons did not debate the case of the rapist Karen White, I should note that the minister addressed that case thus:

‘I want to be clear that the case of Karen White is appalling. There was a series of terrible failings that should never have happened. In the light of that, my ministerial colleagues at the Ministry of Justice are looking again at the decision-making systems that apply to the management of transgender prisoners, as well as how they were applied in that case.’

Which strikes me as going a little further than the Ministry of Justice has done on the issue, but I’ll have to leave it to others to pursue that.

All I can do here is to conclude that Victoria Atkins appears to be doing a pretty good job of handling a very prickly issue without resorting to the unthinking sloganeering or simple political cowardice that some of her colleagues have been guilty of." (continues with criticism & consequences of Layla Moran MP's comments re seeing a person's soul rather than sex & insistence that TWAW etc)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/this-mp-has-summed-up-everything-wrong-with-the-transgender-debate/

MoltenLasagne · 06/12/2018 11:19

I thought guidelines were that you put alleged if there's an identified perpetrator so as to avoid lawsuits from that perpetrator. Rosa has not named anyone, she has said these events have happened. Saying alleged and claimed in this context doesn't avoid lawsuits, it casts doubt on whether she's telling the truth.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 06/12/2018 11:27

I regret how I phrased this statement in my original tweet. I meant that Rosa's feminism and activism is not transexclusionary, i.e. that she is not a transexclusionary or transphobic person, if that makes sense. I of course recognise that Rosa supports the exclusion of non-biologically female people from some female-only spaces, and I agree with her on that.

That's not trans-exclusionary unless she (and you) are stating that transmen are not welcome in womens spaces Smile. Women's only spaces exclude men (and transwomen), they include women (and transmen)

Needmoresleep · 06/12/2018 11:27

Chloe...thanks.

Language is an issue, as unless wording is watertight, anything can be taken out of context. Perhaps time to thank the MN mods for policing us.

I hope your silent majority colleagues and students will offer the support you deserve and you don't suffer any repercussions.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 06/12/2018 11:39

Chloe, well done on going public. you are brave. It's really good to see courageous academics standing with Rose Freedman.

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/12/2018 11:56

Cowardly statement from reading. They could have added in a line about the fact that they support freedom of academic speech and student protest while strongly condemning harassment and criminal acts.

Wine don’t let the bastards grind you down, Rosa, you’re one brave lady. They’re terrified of you.

I hope more of the papers cover this. More light needs to be shone on these activist methods.

Bowlofbabelfish · 06/12/2018 11:57

And well done Chloe. brave move.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 12:00

ChloeHouston79
I read & shared your nuanced and considered thread.
Its important
Thank you for speaking up, I hope more of your colleagues will do the same & The University of Reading take harrassment and intimidation seriously.
Flowers

terryleather · 06/12/2018 12:03

As always it's a huge thank you from me to anyone who stands up for women and girls Flowers to Chloe and Flowers Wine Gin Cake to Rosa, she must really need it - what a brave woman.

Procrastinator1 · 06/12/2018 12:27

Thank you to Chloe and Rosa.

ChewyLouie · 06/12/2018 12:28

Thanks Chloe, hope you and Rosa begin to be supported by Reading Uni.
R0wantrees, thanks for the Spectator link will have a read. Have continued my Times subscription solely because of their stance,mighty start buying The Spectator too. Smile

LangCleg · 06/12/2018 12:30

Hello, ChloeHouston79!

I felt for you so much in your Twitter thread when you said I am not a brave person. Thank you for girding your (woman!) loins and standing in public solidarity with Rosa.

Danaquestionseverything · 06/12/2018 13:11

The treatment of Rosa is disgusting, as for the insipid response from the Uni, that's appalling.

What horrified me most was how she needed to hide in the bushes. I think many women have had that experience and it resonates.

Chloe you are brave! You are the bystander stepping up to say Stop! Enough! I've always believed if more people did that it would really help combat bullying. So much so I encouraged my own DS's to do it.

I leave this quote for you both:

Courage is not the absence of fear, it is the ability to act in the presence of fear. - Bruce Lee

HumberElla · 06/12/2018 13:29

Chloe your integrity really shines through and I’m so pleased that you have stepped forward.
Once again though it is women like you who it seems must summon up the courage to speak out and face the consequences, while those in power and in leadership positions hide in their ivory towers, block their ears and issue platitudes.

EverardDigby · 06/12/2018 13:35

Chloe and Rosa thanks from me too for standing up. I was harassed / bullied out of a university many years ago for standing up to misogyny, and it shaped my next ten years unfortunately and not in a good way. I hope you get support from the university and from colleagues - it would be particularly good for men to step up and support you as they are less likely to be attacked. It is pretty unbelievable that we are in this situation now in 2018.

TakeAWalkOnTheWildSide · 06/12/2018 13:40

Thank you Rosa and Chloe.

AncientLights · 06/12/2018 13:47

Just want to add my voice here. The treatment meted out to Rosa is nothing short of disgusting. Flowers for Rosa and Flowers for Chloë.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 14:05

Once again though it is women like you who it seems must summon up the courage to speak out and face the consequences, while those in power and in leadership positions hide in their ivory towers, block their ears and issue platitudes.

Agree with this. Well done Chloe Thanks

TimeLady · 06/12/2018 14:10

Best wishes to you both. Stay strong

Melanippe · 06/12/2018 14:14

Thank you Chloe and Rosa

And, as for Chloe suggesting that she's not brave, you are as are all women who place themselves in harm's way over this topic for the sake of women who don't have a voice.

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 18:38

University of Reading statement:

Message from the Acting Vice-Chancellor: harassment and bullying
BY STUDENT-SERVICES-NEWS ON DECEMBER 6, 2018

On 12 November, we launched a joint #NeverOK campaign with RUSU against harassment and bullying. We are committed to providing a safe environment for all our students and staff, and we do not tolerate any form of bullying, harassment or discrimination.

You may have seen in the media issues about behaviour towards one of our academics on the basis of publicly stated views on a current public policy issue. Freedom of speech, debate and academic freedom lie at the very heart of university life. A critical part of the university experience is learning how to form and defend an argument. We all have issues we feel passionately about and we may express those feelings in strong terms. But however important the issue and whatever the strength of our convictions, bullying and harassment have absolutely no place in our community. That is completely non-negotiable, whatever the issue or the circumstance, and we will take appropriate disciplinary action against anyone who engages in this sort of unacceptable behaviour.

I consider the respect and support that we demonstrate towards each other here at Reading to be an immense strength of our community, so I know you will join me in supporting the #NeverOK campaign. You can find out more about the campaign and the support we provide to students on the Essentials webpages.

Kind regards.

Robert

Robert Van de Noort

Acting Vice-Chancellor

blogs.reading.ac.uk/student-services-news/

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 18:47

Prof Freedman's response to statement above.

Shocking bullying of gender critical law professor (Rosa Freedman)