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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shocking bullying of gender critical law professor (Rosa Freedman)

261 replies

ProfessionalBarren · 05/12/2018 07:29

Absolutely shocked (and wasn’t sure I still could be) by her thread this morning about the abuse she’s endured, including acts of physical intimidation, covert bullying and vandalism. twitter.com/GoonerProf/status/1070158128837246977?s=20 Fuckers.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 05/12/2018 22:39

The Mail has covered it www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6463947/Law-professor-blames-transgender-activists-campaign-harassment.html

I wonder what the Guardian will do.

Anothermothersusername · 05/12/2018 22:47

I saw that too. It’s stories like this which make me feel like I could never be open about my views regarding self I.D. I think this is exactly what the trans activists want - to strike the fear of god into anyone else should they dare even think about speaking out.

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 05/12/2018 22:58

How is "we support self-id" an appropriate response to the fact that one of your staff has been subjected to threats, abuse and criminal damage? Did they say anything deprecatory about said crimes or is the implication that it's all in a days work in the service of trans rights?

boatyardblues · 05/12/2018 23:04

How is "we support self-id" an appropriate response to the fact that one of your staff has been subjected to threats, abuse and criminal damage?

I thought the same. Almost tone deaf to the actual subject at hand - the abuse towards Rosa.

Rosa - please take courage from the support here. There are so many of us appalled by the disgusting abuse you have suffered when you have been such a strong advocate for others. Just awful. Flowers

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 05/12/2018 23:06

Tallulah - thank you. I somehow missed the massively problematic statement from Uni of Reading at end of BBC article (so excited was I that the BBC were covering it properly):

A University of Reading spokesman said Prof Freedman had "worked extensively throughout her career on the rights of women and the LGBT community".
*
He added: "We explicitly respect the right of our trans staff and students to self-identify their gender.*
*
"This is entirely consistent with our strong defence of the principle of academic freedom and the role of universities and academics in public debate."*

So Prof Freedman is then campaigning against the declared policy of the university??? 🤨

I know that Uni of Sussex (Prof Stock's institution) published a dodgy sounding policy on this a few weeks back but has the Uni of Reading had a actual consultation on this and considered the impacts or is he just a woke idiot comms person assuming that he's uttering a 'motherhood and apple pie' statement??

Mumfun · 05/12/2018 23:10

Exactly Tallulah. Bastards! Can I rewrite it for them?

We explicitly respect the right of our staff and students to discuss all topics of academic interest including those that may be controversial. .

TallulahWaitingInTheRain · 06/12/2018 00:04

Reading University. This is what you need to say.

  • we will not tolerate abuse, threats or criminal damage perpetrated against our staff in their place of work
  • we are investigating these incidents and when we identify the perpetrators we will pursue the strongest sanctions against them
  • we will work with Prof Freedman to ensure that she feels safe and supported on campus and at work
  • we prioritise the safety of all our staff and students regardless of their beliefs, identity or or political positions.

OK? Crimes have been committed on your watch. Can you respond to this rather than behaving as though a woman needs to be defended against the charge of 'having an opinion men don't like' by citing her support for lgbt rights as though in mitigation of her thoughtcrime?

Oldstyle · 06/12/2018 01:05

It seems a trans Labour councillor has responded to hearing about the abuse / misogyny meted out to Rosa by saying that she deserved it. She's now protected her twitter account but there are screenshots up. If anything more is needed to prove that trans women are explicitly not women (and I do realise that we have more than enough proof already) that total lack of empathy certainly does it for me.

womanformallyknownaswoman · 06/12/2018 01:17

The Times is covering it

FlowersFlowers Rosa, it sucks you have to put up with this stalking and harassment - it is totally illegal and unacceptable. I'm wishing you safety for you and your family.

Where is your employer's duty of care? Are the police as quick to follow this up as the vexatious reports of so-called transphobic hate speech?

Who is standing up for women? The silence is deafening and we will not forget those who stood by and bystander bullied when they have the power to put a stop to it.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 01:17

Who was this? Brown?

Imissgmichael · 06/12/2018 01:18

What are the police doing?

ChattyLion · 06/12/2018 06:37

Dr Freeman Flowers this is awful. So sorry. That statement from Reading is absolutely shameful.
Compare with what Sussex university said to support their gender critical Dr Stock when she faced placards and online abuse etc.

Yes the Sussex statement was not as hard hitting as it could have been (appealing for kindness rather than strongly pointing out zero tolerance of threats and aggression and consequences for perps of any harassment beyond free speech boundaries) but the Sussex statement now looks absolutely staunch compared to what Reading said in their tweet upthread. Or failed to say.

Dr F’s employer has legal duties to protect her but also moral duties to protect her and set the tone for their institution and so far they’d appear to be reserving judgment in some way Hmm pending investigation.Hmm

I hope she is getting the support of other academics and they make representations to their MPs collectively about what is happening and to the government department that covers Science and Universities.

Women’s groups and LGBT groups for students and academics (or such groups for anyone really) need to be making strong statements to condemn this and saying yes to free speech and open debate and no to hate, harassment and victimisation.

m.sussex.ac.uk/broadcast/read/45388

Broadcast: News items
A message from the Vice-Chancellor – living our values
Vice-Chancellor, Adam Tickell
With this week’s launch of the University's new Strategic Framework, Sussex 2025, we have talked about the need for the University to embrace and live by a set of new institutional values. These are: Kindness, Integrity, Inclusion, Collaboration and Courage.

These values were borne out of many discussions with staff, students and our alumni. During our consultations around the Strategic Framework, there was an overwhelming sense that Sussex needs to be a kind and inclusive university – and one that can provide an environment that is safe and accessible to all.

As a diverse community, with a wide range of understandings, there will be many times when our ability to stand by our values will be tested and, of course, we have to test what such values actually mean. There will also be moments when these ideals may rub against each other. However, I believe that living by these values is not only the right thing to do, but it will genuinely help us to thrive as a university.

In our drive to embody these values, we can’t just make statements and then take it as read that others will simply believe our words.

That is definitely the case in terms of our value in relation to inclusion. The University has stated its unstinting commitment to the rights of the LGBTQ+ community, but we must now turn that into action. We will continue to celebrate the diversity of the Sussex community and work to see our LGBTQ+ staff and student body grow. I don't ever want that to change and it sits at the heart of our new Equality, Diversity and Inclusion strategy and the action that we will take.

I have also reflected upon a situation involving an academic member of staff here at Sussex and the concerns raised by some members of our community on the views that she has shared on the Gender Recognition Act, which the government is currently consulting on.

The academic in question has come under fire for articulating views, informed by her philosophical research and scholarship, on the laws and customs surrounding gender identity. Although she has stated that she is fully supportive of the rights of everyone to identify their own gender, she has also raised questions about where boundaries should be set and these have provoked strong feelings and, in some cases, accusations. It’s at this juncture I’ve felt uncomfortable about the implication that there may be something more sinister going on.

This situation is actually a telling example of how we can choose to call upon our values to inform how we act.

By celebrating inclusion, we must recognise the personal courage of the many individuals who come up against abuse or unacceptable behaviour - just because they are being themselves. I know it has been extremely difficult for many people in the transgender and non-binary community to hear the views held by our academic.

But for me, alongside this, we must also be kind to those people who are brave enough to share their own views – and respect the courage they have for doing so. Whether it is one of our academics or another member of staff, or one of our students, I feel very strongly that we must respect their right to free speech. I hold a deep-rooted concern about the future of our democratic society if we silence the views of people we don't agree with – even if our disagreements are vehemently opposed.

Please do not misunderstand me, I am certainly not saying these discussions are easy. I thought very hard about writing this message as I know that there will be some who disagree with what I am saying. But I wouldn’t feel that I was living up to my own ideals about integrity if I didn’t say something on this subject.

So, as our campus community looks ahead to see how we can live by our institutional values in the workplace, I would ask those with different views and understandings to please show kindness to each other. Nobody should be silenced and we must truly listen to the multitude of voices that speak out on matters. But rather than do so from different corners, we should come together and do this respectfully.

Adam Tickell

Posted on behalf of: University of Sussex
Last updated: Friday, 13 July 2018

ChattyLion · 06/12/2018 06:55

Sussex VC’s statement above is (very) different from Sussex University’s policy for staff which then appeared a few months later: see this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3430006-Sussex-University-new-policy-statement

BeanBagLady · 06/12/2018 07:40

So Prof Freeman receives many letters from academics saying they are intimidated against speaking out. The article in the Spectator last week quoted a journalist who had spoken to many backbenchers who feel the same.

Someone needs to put these people together.

Ereshkigal · 06/12/2018 08:31

Who was this? Brown?

Of course it won't be, if Labour. Silly me Blush

ProfessionalBarren · 06/12/2018 08:59

Well this isn’t at all inappropriate or victim blaming. Completely reasonable things for a Labour councillor to share publically. Nothing to see here...

Shocking bullying of gender critical law professor (Rosa Freedman)
OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 06/12/2018 09:23

I'm not sure if the link to the Times piece upthread has a sharetoken so here is on that does

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/trans-lobby-sent-me-death-threats-claims-professor-qqw7cz609?shareToken=af8d7c8824f35d13e1f04e34a6ecf2d6

ChewyLouie · 06/12/2018 09:30

Just wondering, where is the Minister for Women and Equalities in all of this ( esp as she read Philosophy at Reading University)? Can she not hear the voices of female academics and reach out to these women being harassed in their work places?

R0wantrees · 06/12/2018 09:45

Just wondering, where is the Minister for Women and Equalities in all of this ( esp as she read Philosophy at Reading University)? Can she not hear the voices of female academics and reach out to these women being harassed in their work places?

It may be better to try Victoria Atkins MP (Minister for Women), Penny Mordant has seemed resolutely intent on not listening to women's (adult human female) concerns and experiences.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297184-Your-comments-for-Penny-Mordaunt

This thread evolved from the original one posted by Justine Roberts at the beginning of the Govt. Consultation.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/3297067-Mumsnet-moderation-response-to-yesterdays-feedback

As its in another place, 'Talk', there is a risk it gets lost.

There are many important comments, posts and concerns of MN members on the thread including additional questions and comments for Penny Mordant.

The thread which Justine is referring to in her comment & links to:
July 3rd 2018, OP Pratchet wrote:
"A woman is an adult female human
Of the sex whose reproductive role is to gestate and bear young.

Let's just say this while we still can. Because it's true, and however many people try to make us lie about it, or remain silent, it will always be true.

In times of universal deceit, speaking the truth is a revolutionary act.

It hurts MY feelings to see 'transwomen are women'. It damages MY mental health to see that, it makes ME feel erased and MY identity feel destroyed. I have a voice and I deserve that voice. WE deserve it.

I am Spartacus. A woman is an adult female human. Sex is binary, immutable and defined by reproductive role.

If you report me, or get me banned you shoot the messenger. Because this is true and will always be true. And this day, this day of a lie, I WILL say it.

#Spartacus"

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3295603-A-woman-is-an-adult-female-human

Needmoresleep · 06/12/2018 09:49

Stephanie Dale - transgender Labour Councillor in Lincolnshire. What is it with Lincolnshire?

Another (non) candidate for Labour's first transgender MP along with our Lils, Sophie Cook and that abusive women's officer in, was it, Shropshire?

MoltenLasagne · 06/12/2018 09:53

Isn't it interesting how the university refers to "alleged incidents" and then The Times article becomes "professor claims" rather than "professor harassed / attacked". It's the university casting doubt on Rosa's version of events which then becomes another version of this never happens, women are not credible witnesses etc

Needmoresleep · 06/12/2018 10:13

Molten, I would have thought this is standard journalistic procedure.

We may all believe Rosa, but others out there (a particular brave and stunning lawyer) have made a number of "hate" claims without seemingly being able to get the verdicts they want.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 06/12/2018 10:22

It's a standard thing to avoid lawsuit's it avoids it being presented as fact before any legal action is taken.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 06/12/2018 10:29

She really is amazing

Rosa Freedman
@GoonerProf
A privilege and honour to be invited to talk to MSPs about sex and gender. Really constructive discussion and great to have such engaged politicians who care deeply both about protecting women and protecting trans identifying individuals without conflating the two groups.

Rosa Freedman
‏**@GoonerProf**
Good to hear oral evidence from the trans lobby in Scotland explicitly stating to MSPs that they have changed their position since 2015 and absolutely support women's rights to choose only to have females provide intimate services (eg midwives, police searches, etc)

ChewyLouie · 06/12/2018 10:51

R0wantrees, thanks for the links. I see I was mistaken earlier because what we actually have is a Minister for Men and Equalities. Maybe the Minister for Women will address this issue.

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