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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

I am a right winger - convince me to become a feminist

302 replies

RadicalConservative · 01/12/2018 20:27

As per subject, I vote Conservative, why? Because I believe in personal responsibility, I also believe that if you cannot afford something you should tighten your belt and save up instead of relying on credit which is ridiculously expensive i.e fiscal responsibility. I also believe in an individuals dignity and right to live whether that be a older person with a debilitating illness or a foetus in the womb. I lurk on FWR for a number of reasons and I would like to know and understand "feminist" issues however I find I am often dismayed at some of the "tribalism" and "hive mind" mentality on these threads. However if you can, please do try to educate me as to why women like myself should in your view be feminists, as it would seem that right wingers such as myself are only useful when we happen to agree on specific issues - see this tweet for an example: twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1068477170526445568

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 02/12/2018 09:42

“Does that make me not a feminist then, because I am rejected by the feminists here?”

What do you mean, “rejected by feminists here”?

KataraJean · 02/12/2018 09:53

weetabixandshreddies I was posting in response to something another poster said.

If you want to take it as a superiority complex because I mentioned intelligent and well-reasoned comments, that is your prerogative. But given that you managed to post quite coherently twice, I think you are being disingenuous. It is just another way ‘feminists’ or worse, well-educated women who are feminists have to defend themselves. Well-educated women used to be called unwomanly and ‘blue-stockings’.

Why is female intelligence threatening or to be derided?

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/12/2018 09:53

Corbyn is a misogynist and I won't be voting Labour whilst he is leader. Even if he goes Momentum has taken over the Labour Party. There are Labour female MPs I still have time for, Liz Kendall, Yvette Cooper, Lisa Nandy (the latter was on Andrew Neill show recently where a Momentum male creep , Michael Walker was doing a puff piece and she was clearly on the list for deselection) Jess Phillips and even Stella Creasy. However the Corbyn favourites like Dawn Butler , Kate Osamar and Naz Shah I have no time for. All 3 strike me as having little ability , intelligence or integrity.

Weetabixandshreddies · 02/12/2018 10:00

BertrandRussell

But the comments about being educated, being intelligent aren't only levelled at the OP. Thet are mentioned on many threads in the context of "don't ask us, here's an academic paper, go and read that", or " don't post on here until you've read certain writers and educated yourself". How many women have a university level education? Even A level? So any woman below the required standard can't get involved? Does feminism not apply to them?

Every single thread on here is now viewed through the TRA/trans lens. Every discussion at some point is brought round to that with a high level of suspicion levelled at any poster who holds a different opinion or who asks questions. It seems impossible to accept that real, actual women might be asking these questions.

What do you mean, “rejected by feminists here”?

Exactly that.

Gronky · 02/12/2018 10:01

KataraJean

I really appreciate that you tried to engage initially and I fully understand why, when dealing with such a sensitive topic someone might lose their temper. I don't think that someone facing a similar traumatic experience and constructing a different set of beliefs based (partially or in whole) upon that experience invalidates yours but I can certainly see how it might feel that way.

To the MNers saying that 'we've had this discussion before' or words to this effect, there's a very simple solution if you don't want to have the discussion again because you feel satisfied in your conclusions but don't want to reiterate them: just don't engage. Please consider there may be others on all 'sides' who still want to have a discussion and all shutting down said discussion achieves is ossifying beliefs for everyone.

KataraJean · 02/12/2018 10:02

I reported my posts last night and they have now been deleted.

I am going to hide the thread now which I should have done initially.

Weetabixandshreddies · 02/12/2018 10:04

Why is female intelligence threatening or to be derided?

Female intelligence is absolutely not threatening but nor should it be a pre requisite to being a woman, a feminist, or holding an opinion.

Just because you aren't able to access a wordy, academic paper it doesn't mean that you can't have an opinion based on your lived experience or on your observations.

And thank you for your kind words re my posts. Sadly though, all too often, I've been accused of lacking intelligence on this board.

Gronky · 02/12/2018 10:06

Sadly though, all too often, I've been accused of lacking intelligence on this board.

I find it very sad when self proclaimed feminists use an attack which has been used against women throughout the centuries for female oppression.

Nanalisa60 · 02/12/2018 10:09

Can’t teach an old dog new tricks!! Just try and be tolerant of others views !!

99point9FahrenheitDegrees · 02/12/2018 10:11

? There are well respected posters on the FWR board who clearly don't have university education! And ourbackgrounds and outlooks differ WILDLY. That's precisely what I love - being forced to think differently by the right-wing businesswoman, by the grafter from Deptford, by the tattooed lesbian ex phone sex worker, by the biologist, by the academic... And I certainly wouldn't walk into Everton and demand people convince me to love football, and then complain about nasty tribalist responses Confused

SophoclesTheFox · 02/12/2018 10:11

self proclaimed feminists

I'm interested in this phrase. There isn't any other way to be a feminist except to say you are one. There isn't a guild you have to be admitted to!

Do you think that women here aren't actually feminists? What makes you think that?

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 02/12/2018 10:14

On aibu someone comes on with this sort of post and they would get both positive and negative replies

I imagine the same would be similar on the dog house and breastfeeding threads

Some people dont like these sort of demands however they are couched

And the OP as far as I remember did not engage with very many posters

And i got yelled at for saying something to another poster...to be fair i now remember the first time it happened in real life when i whispered to a friend in assembly and I got caned for it . So maybe its similar

Gronky · 02/12/2018 10:18

There isn't any other way to be a feminist except to say you are one.
Do you think that women here aren't actually feminists?

I used that phrase specifically to emphasise that (speaking very broadly) the same women attacking or questioning the intelligence of Weetabix would also be very likely to emphatically describe themselves as feminists.

I also believe they are feminists, just ones that are misguided in some respects or happy to use tactics with rather unpleasant historical connotations. However, as you rightly alluded to, what I think is irrelevant, it's their self identification that matters.

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2018 10:18

"But the comments about being educated, being intelligent aren't only levelled at the OP. Thet are mentioned on many threads in the context of "don't ask us, here's an academic paper, go and read that", or " don't post on here until you've read certain writers and educated yourself""

Obviously, I can't be sure about this, but I would put good money on those comments only being made to the troll-type posters I mentioned. Or to posters who persist in debyibg something that has been conclusively shown to be true. The type of poster who says "I have never been disadvantaged by being a woman therefore no woman is disadvantaged"

Weetabixandshreddies · 02/12/2018 10:23

Do you think that women here aren't actually feminists? What makes you think that?

My uneducated view of feminism is one that values all women equally. That supports all women and recognises that they have value as individuals. That true equality means being free to choose for yourself, not having restrictions imposed on you.

For me it feels as oppressive to be told by a woman that I can't express a certain opinion as it does to be told by a man.

To be told by a woman that my choice to be a SAHM isn't valid as it is to be told by a man that my choice to be an astro physicist isn't valid.

To be told by a woman that my choice to be ultra girly is not valid, just as to be insulted by a man for choosing to not wear feminine clothes.

For me, being a feminist is about supporting women to have their own mind, to make the best choices for them but to develop a society where everyone is free to make choices and that opportunities are available to all so that the freedom to choose is a true one.

LassWiADelicateAir · 02/12/2018 10:23

Obviously, I can't be sure about this, but I would put good money on those comments only being made to the troll-type posters I mentioned

They have been made to me.

Weetabixandshreddies · 02/12/2018 10:28

BertrandRussell

Well, they have definitely been aimed at me and I am not a troll and nor have I denied an experience because it hasn't happened to me.

I just don't agree blindly, with everything that is said on here.

I have different opinions. No I haven't read widely around the subject. I don't know the right things to say, the "in" language. But for me, being a feminist isn't exclusive. It should be inclusive. It shouldn't be a private members club, and that is very much the impression given on these boards.

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2018 10:30

"For me, being a feminist is about supporting women to have their own mind, to make the best choices for them"
The problem with this is that women can make choices that are damaging to other women. Should I support women making choices that I believe to be wrong and bad for women as a whole?

ABitCrapper · 02/12/2018 10:33

Weetabix yes it is supportive and feminist to support bother women's choices whilst acknowledging that those choices are not made in a vacuum.
So the sex worker may be freely making a choice to be a sex worker, but the patriachal benefits system, and CSE she may have undergone contribute to that choice.
Likewise I have chosen to be a SAHM, yet this choice had been made with the knowledge that my DHs career is in a mysoginistic industry that does not support Flexi or part time work, and we both want the children parented by us while under 3. And my career as a female dominated one is less valued and less profitable.
So a choice is made, but influenced by our patriarchal society.

ABitCrapper · 02/12/2018 10:34

"Bother"??? No idea how that word appeared! Should be - all

ABitCrapper · 02/12/2018 10:35

And what Bertrand said

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2018 10:38

Lass- you are an excellent example! You say you are not a feminist, and frequently use your own experience to say that women in work in the U.K. are not disadvantaged. You have suggested that others read evidence to support your position on porn and prostitution- surely that's OK?

ABitCrapper · 02/12/2018 10:40

I don't think this board feels like a private member's club. But I do think that the threads can be challenging and rigorous.
It's a great place to get you thinking. It's ok to disagree but on here you are expected to back up your assertions - which is great! Grin

And I also think it is too easy sometimes to misinterpret disagreement as personal attack. I have very rarely seen personal attack on here between posters - although the threads about individuals activity on Twitter makes me very uncomfortable, I understand why they occur - for me they are a bit beyond decent behaviour. But you know, we are not a hive mind :)

Weetabixandshreddies · 02/12/2018 10:42

Should I support women making choices that I believe to be wrong and bad for women as a whole?

My gut feeling is that yes you should, because where do the value judgements end as to what is a good choice and what isn't?

ABitCrapper

I understand what you mean. I still think that individual women should be supported and validated whilst at the same time demanding that the structure of society changes so that everyone has equal choices. So, in your example, I value your choice to be a SAHM and the role that you play but at the same time, yes, all jobs should be more supportive of families and their needs.

I don't think it's right to put down women who are SAHM just because society influences that choice.

BertrandRussell · 02/12/2018 10:44

"To be told by a woman that my choice to be a SAHM isn't valid as it is to be told by a man that my choice to be an astro physicist isn't valid."
This is a good example- I am/was a SAHP too, by the way. It's a tricky choice for a feminist to make because in many ways it's a profoundly non feminist choice. I am very conscious of the role model I am offering to my children, and I have though a lot about how to make sure that the negative aspects are balanced by highlighting the positive ones. As a feminist, no choice is simple, made in a vacuum and consequence free.