I am a right winger - convince me to become a feminist

[RadicalConservative]

As per subject, I vote Conservative, why? Because I believe in personal responsibility, I also believe that if you cannot afford something you should tighten your belt and save up instead of relying on credit which is ridiculously expensive i.e fiscal responsibility. I also believe in an individuals dignity and right to live whether that be a older person with a debilitating illness or a foetus in the womb. I lurk on FWR for a number of reasons and I would like to know and understand "feminist" issues however I find I am often dismayed at some of the "tribalism" and "hive mind" mentality on these threads. However if you can, please do try to educate me as to why women like myself should in your view be feminists, as it would seem that right wingers such as myself are only useful when we happen to agree on specific issues - see this tweet for an example: twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1068477170526445568

I wonder what the correlation is between this observation and you not being a feminist.

Once a woman gives up acting in her own best interest in order to better serve men, she can easily get mistaken for a simply selfish man on the internet as long as she only talks about her politic opinions and not her private life.

The "educate me, I am to lazy to do it myself" thing is very typically of males, too, of course.

I'm completely lost here - why is ItsAllGoingToBeFine being criticised by some of you? She has only posted one post.

On the question itself, yes I have seen posts saying being right wing is incompatible with being a feminist. The position has probably taken a dent recently because of the fact it is the right wing who are currently defending free speech.

We are al. women who have suffered on account of our femaleness and in uniquely female ways. This is what sisterhood, and feminism, is about

That means nothing to me personally- certainly not a convincing argument for me to be a feminist.

I'm completely lost here - why is ItsAllGoingToBeFine being criticised by some of you? She has only posted one post.

Yes, what's that about?

You think I am a man because I want to understand? You are truly insane

You say you are 58 and you have never ever thought about feminism being a woman in all those years?

WIBU to ask that, in future threads of this nature, MNers refrain from adding messages if all they're going to do is explain why they won't answer the question or attack the questioner for having the temerity to ask such a question in the first place? If you view a question as goady, ignoring it will make it vanish from the list of subjects more quickly.

These threads make me sad because there is the possibility it's simply a badly thought out post with good intentions (I haven't RTFT but I gather from last comments I have read there's info to suspect otherwise) but when a poster is immediately met with hostility if they were just a bit shortsighted with the post they usually just fuck off deciding not to look further at what their own questions were in the first place by declaring us all batshit crazy women.

I don't usually look at feminists threads because it is too complicated but this one came up on active threads so I had a look. I really feel sorry for the lady who started this thread. It seems she really wanted to try and understand things but was met with hostility and accusations. She said she is a CSA and grooming survivor but you seem to have ignored that, is this because she happens to be a Tory voter. I can understand why she would not want to be a feminist if this is how you treat women who vote differently. Perhaps you need to look in the mirror to see if you really are feminists who supposedly defend women

interestingdebatetoday, Bleachedblongredfingertips

I feel that part of the problem is that it's much easier to get angry than it is to compose a well reasoned response, particularly with someone whom the responder views as an 'opponent'.

But why get angry at another woman? I just don't get it, perhaps I should just stay out of it and go back to Telly Addicts

But why get angry at another woman?

It's the easier option when confronted by someone with different views. By treating them as bad and, therefore, inherently wrong, there's no need to have a genuine discussion (since they're apparently acting in bad faith) which requires effort and might even lead to a reevaluation of viewpoints for both parties. Very simplified, it's tribalism.

perhaps I should just stay out of it and go back to Telly Addicts

This is the other aspect of ideological tribalism. It drives out those interested in a discussion that might require personal reevaluation and consolidates the group down to one wherein the only discussion revolves around confirming the shared beliefs of the group. Not every MNer here is like this and not even every attacker is like this but it only requires a modest number to jump on the bandwagon to create a tribal state.

These threads make me sad because there is the possibility it's simply a badly thought out post with good intentions (I haven't RTFT but I gather from last comments I have read there's info to suspect otherwise)

I've not rtft either...but sadly have seen all too many threads like this 'Explain feminism to me' appear on FWR on a Friday or Saturday evening. Time was they'd get reams of patient responses until it became clear the thread hadn't been started in good faith. Over and over again, until regulars got sick of it, especially as such threads generally got deleted and so all the work of replying was lost.

Maybe we need a pinned FAQ and reference reading thread to refer people to... if they really want to learn they would say thanks and do so, and then maybe come back to join in threads later.

The question of whether one can be a feminist and right wing has been discussed before. There certainly have been posters who say the 2 are incompatible.

There are also always posters who trot out the rather silly response in relation to 2 Conservative PMs and no Labour that Thatcher and May might be women but they have only got where they did by aping masculine traits/ pandering to the patriarchy/.

Nadine Dorres describes herself as a feminist. She is opposed to abortion. There are certain posters on FWR who say no-one who opposes abortion can be a feminist.

Andrea Leadsom has said she is not a feminist yet she is pro-choice and supported Stella Creasy on NI abortion rights. Anna Soubry is both a feminist and pro-choice. Julia Hartley-Brewer has described herself as a feminist and is pro-choice within current UK restrictions.

The position has probably taken a dent recently because of the fact it is the right wing who are currently defending free speech.

The current manifestation of left wing politics in the uk is anti-woman. I don’t think the right are particularly pro woman either but their stance on free speech is more beneficial than not,

It’s certainly forced me to have a good think about left vs right and what I think is important politically

. Things are not good or bad simply because they are a left or right wing position. There’s s definite tendency on the left to demonise anything right wing simply because it’s not of the left.

I wish there was a party to vote for who had centrist aims that looked to benefit the country as a whole, a decent fiscal policy, fair social policies and a sensible stance on the environment it cannot be beyond the wit of man to have a thriving economy AND a functioning society, surely?

As a Harry Potter fan, I will put it into simple terms for you:

Radical feminism may at times be Severus Snape, but patriarchy is Dolores Umbridge.

Anyone who'd choose "is nice as long as I do what she wants" over "is nasty to me but protects my life, body and freedom" is just stupid.

This is good Hestia, I may need to pinch it to use in real life!

Gronky as one of the people who got angry last night (or maybe the only one who lost it), I have written many, many well-reasoned responses on this board. The board is full of comment by intelligent and well-reasoning women.

But debate takes two, not just one side needling and the other providing responses. That reminds me of patterns of abuse.

It is not even a left-wing/right wing issue - there have been and are excellent posters on here across the political spectrum. The legendary Xenia was right wing as could be; I have credited her on helping me see the light in my marriage because she contributed to the discussion. I don’t agree with all her views, but they are not just needling for a response.

I lost it - and I apologise - when the rape comments started. Women are at the moment coming forward and being forced to come forward in droves with their sexual histories to combat inequality and maintain hard-won rights. The link posted about a rape survivor was not engaging with the debate about support for survivors (which I posted a well-reasoned response on) but as a stick to beat feminists with. When I called this out, then CSA was brought in with ‘do you want to play oppression olympics?’

No, I do not want to play oppression olympics. I do not want to have to reveal more and more of my past to be listened to. I want to be able to say enough.

By which point, the thread had departed wholesale from left-wing and right-wing politics. I do not care where someone sits on the political spectrum, but I question whether starting and then sitting on a thread needling posters on a feminist forum is a good way to pull out political differences across the spectrum.

OP - having read the whole thread, I think you are very much a feminist, but you have a pre-conceived idea as to what feminist ‘ideology,’ as you term it, is. There is no specific model - what we have in common is that we oppose patriarchy. We believe that women should have equal rights, equal pay and be treated with respect and dignity.

It’s true that for some of us, our views have been shaped by feminists who came before us and whose work we admire, but there are many who have not had anything to do with their writings.

Regarding voting Conservative - being a feminist doesn’t mean following left-wing politics. I consider Jeremy Corbyn to be a misogynist and do not intend to vote Labour whilst he is in charge. I consider the stance of Julia Hartley-Brewer who is a republican and an atheist, by the way, to be very much feminist. She also featured on the list of ‘100 most influential people on the Right.’ A few days ago Nadine Dorries posted that she was going to wear a ‘Woman: adult human female’ sweatshirt (produced by Standing for Women) in support of her friend Julia H-B who refuses to be called a cis-woman. Standing for Women is a feminist group, I’m sure both Julia Hartley-Brewer, Nadine Dorries and a whole host of other Conservative women would call themselves feminists, even though they might not have many other things in common with each other.

I think that your idea of what it is to be a feminist needs updating, to be honest. I’d say you already are a feminist; you just have not accepted it.

I don’t consider Theresa May to be a feminist, though. She, on the other hand, might feel otherwise.

I'm completely lost here - why is ItsAllGoingToBeFine being criticised by some of you? She has only posted one post.

The OP had a very similar name to mine. MNHQ changed their name on this thread, but obviously forgot to say. The OP, in their former name, was being criticised.

For the posters who think this was a wasted opportunity, or women are being mean. This sort of opening post happens with monotonous regularity.

If someone was really interested in whether or not they are a feminist, they'd do some research, or not care about the label.

So many posts start with demanding women justify the label feminist.

It sometimes lead to an interesting discussion, but at the end of the day the label's irrelevant. It's what you do and think that is important, not what you call yourself.

No one can stop you from feministing. And if a bunch of women on the Internet getting irritated because you demand they account for themselves, puts you off, I would say your sincerity was fairly flimsy.

And yes, women have spent a considerable amount of time formulating posts and reasonable arguments. Only to find that nothing is good enough, because the person is not sincere. And the entire thread gets zapped.

Genuine questions posted here get genuine responses.

Genuine goading gets genuine responses too

I think the OP illustrates perfectly that it’s not only men that are mysoginists!

The board is full of comment by intelligent and well-reasoning women.

I find these boards full of posters with a superiority complex.

How intelligent do women need to be in order to be allowed to take part?

I see very often references to academic studies - they aren't particularly accessible to people without a certain level of education.

Does that mean women who aren't able to access them can't be a feminist? Can't have an opinion on issues that affect them? Can't ask questions from actual people who hopefully could give answers in plain English?

There's no support here for women. There's only support for, as a PP said, tribalism. The only people made to feel welcome here are the ones who already fit in, who speak the language, who wholeheartedly agree.

You are excluding many women with your insistence that they educate themselves and the treatment of the OP who mentioned her CSE was deplorable.

What's your response to the Ops question, @Weetabixandshreddies?

@AssassinatedBeauty

In all honesty, I don't know.

Is feminism particularly left wing or right wing? It isn't something I've thought about in relation to politics.

I've always considered myself to be a feminist - I believe and stand up for equality, I think men and women are different but equal.

I am left wing though. I hate what the right stand for. I am pro choice, though I don't like the idea of abortion I think in every instance it is much better than a woman being compelled to continue with a pregnancy that she doesn't want.

I do believe in individual responsibility though and I think that should be promoted far more.

So, in essence, I don't know about the OP. Parts I agree with, parts I don't but that is based on my own experience, not an intellectual argument. But again, I am only a woman who has lived nearly 50 years of life as a female and seen the good and bad that brings. I have opinions on what that means but I'm clearly not educated to a level considered appropriate by many posters on this board and so feel excluded from the discussion.

Does that make me not a feminist then, because I am rejected by the feminists here?

“You are excluding many women with your insistence that they educate themselves and the treatment of the OP who mentioned her CSE was deplorable.”

The OP said she was an academic. It is surely reasonable for her to be able to inform herself a bit before asking to be educated by people on here?

It is a fact that many of the “teach me about feminism” posts on here are trolls. It is incredibly frustrating to answer in good faith only for the thread to end in a “gotcha” or a zap. The OP may be posting in good faith, and I am sorry if she is, but it certainly doesn’t look like that.