I am a right winger - convince me to become a feminist

[RadicalConservative]

As per subject, I vote Conservative, why? Because I believe in personal responsibility, I also believe that if you cannot afford something you should tighten your belt and save up instead of relying on credit which is ridiculously expensive i.e fiscal responsibility. I also believe in an individuals dignity and right to live whether that be a older person with a debilitating illness or a foetus in the womb. I lurk on FWR for a number of reasons and I would like to know and understand "feminist" issues however I find I am often dismayed at some of the "tribalism" and "hive mind" mentality on these threads. However if you can, please do try to educate me as to why women like myself should in your view be feminists, as it would seem that right wingers such as myself are only useful when we happen to agree on specific issues - see this tweet for an example: twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/1068477170526445568

And I also think it is too easy sometimes to misinterpret disagreement as personal attack. I have very rarely seen personal attack on here between posters -

I think it's very easy to take that stance when you haven't been on the receiving end.

And actually I don't think that belittling someone, or questioning their intelligence is having a rigorous debate.

Again, your assertion that people need to back up their opinions relies on all posters having a certain level of education and access to data, academic studies etc. Immediately you have excluded a great number of people from being able to participate.

"I don't think it's right to put down women who are SAHM just because society influences that choice."

I don't think it's right to put women down either. But I don't think disagreeing is the same as putting down. I am not going to agree with and support another women just because she is a woman.

"And actually I don't think that belittling someone, or questioning their intelligence is having a rigorous debate."

Neither do I. But are you suggesting that nobody should have to back up their opinions?

@weetabix and shreddies

My feeling is that you make too many generalisations. about 'feminism' and about women who post on the 'Women's Rights' board. The boards here bring together all sorts of women from different backgrounds, perspectives and experiences. Yes, some people have a combative approach and this is where things can go rapidly downhill.

However, you also make quite provocative statements, and some may say that you also have a kind of " superiority complex". Although, I wouldn't - because that would be unnecessarily inflammatory, and because I can see that you are posting from your own unique perspective,

After a while you get used to people's posting styles, and you can then choose to engage, or not, as you see fit.

Weetabix absolutely, belittling is never acceptable, but please do not take individuals responses as "the board's" responses. Yes some people are arses, and that applies as much to feminists as any other grouping of individuals!

See currently we are having a discussion I am enjoying, you have made some assertions that have made me look and re-evaluate my opinions. I do not feel personally threatened by that, and I hope you do not.
So for example, you said expecting posters to back up assertions is essentially elitist and exclusionary. And yes, I believe that may be correct. However it is possible to back up assertions without resorting to academia - a well reasoned argument is pretty good as well, and needs no formal education, just a willingness to think.

And fwiw I have had my arse handed to me on this board and had to completely rethink what I was trying to say! And even yesterday one poster on here basically told me to stop posting stuff I know nothing about, and I think there was a personal attack as well, although I can't remember. And I had to back up why I posted what I did.
Anyway please keep posting, and call out any personal attacks you come across as everyone needs to debate stuff in an atmosphere where arguments are attacked, not people.

Neither do I. But are you suggesting that nobody should have to back up their opinions?

On another recent thread a poster was being repeatedly told to back up her arguments yet in response got the " you're not a woman" line.

This board used to be called 'feminism and women's rights'... I wish it still was.
By and large (though I'm sure there are exceptions) posts which support women's rights are very welcome - whether they come from someone who defines themselves as a 'feminist' or not. Conversely, posts which undermine women's rights will be attacked, again regardless of how the poster defines themselves.

I don't mean feminism doesn't matter - it does.

Nobody should be belittled or insulted or personally attacked. I do find it quite depressing that we seem to spend more time discussing this than we do talking about actual issues. Incidentally, if you want to see belittling, insults and personal attacks, try posting anything vaguely feminist on any Mumsnet board that isn't FWR.

ABitCrapper

Absolutely, this is a very enjoyable discussion and sometimes they do stay civil and yes, that's when you are able to reflect and question what you think.

You are right - it isn't "the board" it is a few individuals. Sadly, they do seem to gang up at times and then start with the belittling or post rubbish (as we have seen on here with lists of laundry etc)

I know it isn't a hive mind but it does come across as exclusive and shutting people out when it happens.

The end result, as people are saying on the thread about why don't people think they are a feminist, is that people like me start to question what being a feminist means.

I don't identify with much of what I've seen to date on here so where does that leave me?

We are currently dancing around that old chestnut of female socialisation and "why can't you women just be nice?"

"as we have seen on here with lists of laundry etc)"

Do you really think that the OP on this thread is genuine?

On another recent thread a poster was being repeatedly told to back up her arguments yet in response got the " you're not a woman" line.

Yep. On a thread that I was myself, and another very long standing and frequent poster well respected on SEN board, got dismissed because we are men, apparently.

"I don't identify with much of what I've seen to date on here so where does that leave me?"

I'm not sure. The only thing you've said that makes me wonder whether you are a feminist is the idea that women should be supported in whatever decisions they make simply because they are women. I profoundly disagree with that and think it's non feminist position.

Start your own branch of the tree, like everyone before you did.

When people have been posting on a particular forum for many years, there can be a tendency to claim it as 'their space' - with other less frequent contributors appearing, almost, as interlopers - who are routinely not engaged with.

Gangs and cliques form, amongst long standing contributors, who then back each other up when conflict or disagreement ensues. It is not very welcoming or pleasant.

BertrandRussell

Honestly I don't know. I don't feel that it's my place to judge.

Regardless of the intent though, some interesting points are raised both by the OP and by other posters.

Why can't the points be discussed?

It's the same as when other threads are started elsewhere - I'm referring to posts where people ask for urgent medical advice etc. Eventually the Op gets called out for being a troll and inevitably the thread gets pulled but actually the thread contained really good advice for anyone who might be genuinely in that position.

Same here. Whether the OP is genuine or not, the discussion could continue in good faith, as it is now, with proper discussion taking place.

Weetabix surely its up to you to want the label "feminist" or not? If you keep niggling away at things that seem sexist to you, then personally I would say those are feminist actions. So for example I challenge my children, children's friends, and any students I teach when I'm working, when I hear them say things like "those are boys toys", "you throw like a girl" etc
Just small actions, but hopefully contribute to a more equal society.
I make sure my kids see both myself and DH do all household chores.
I keep challenging DH to ask for part time or Flexi hours yet again, so I can return part time.
And I post on here.
I think I'm a feminist despite not agreeing with lots of stuff that's probably in feminist theory. Have to say I haven't really read any feminist literature as my eyes glaze over at the verbosity.

Weetabix

You don't always need to provide academic studies. But if your (not you personally, generally) opinions are largely uninformed and ignorant and your position is not robust and cannot be articulated, they will be challenged. I think this is a good thing.

The only thing you've said that makes me wonder whether you are a feminist is the idea that women should be supported in whatever decisions they make simply because they are women. I profoundly disagree with that and think it's non feminist position.

Really? That's interesting. Can you expand on that any more?

ABitCrapper

We are currently dancing around that old chestnut of female socialisation and "why can't you women just be nice?

No we aren't. I'm fed up of seeing that trotted out when an individual poster often legitimately queries personal attacks.

Weetabix the OP was really nonsensical though and they didn't reply in good faith. They seemed to me to be fishing for a "gotcha" . Which they got.
For example I asked why they thought being a conservative meant they couldn't be a feminist, and there was no response at all to that. There was a really aggressive combative air to it.
So yes, I started being a bit silly because I thought it was funny. Very immature I know, but in my defense I have been up 3 nights running with my toddler who has croup and I am tired and fed up.
So I apologise for my contributions to the thread above as I know we should just not engage if we think a poster is a toll. I did report them several times to MNHQ though so shrug

But if your (not you personally, generally) opinions are largely uninformed and ignorant and your position is not robust and cannot be articulated, they will be challenged. I think this is a good thing

I suppose it all depends on who is deciding opinions are ignorant.

But if your (not you personally, generally) opinions are largely uninformed and ignorant and your position is not robust and cannot be articulated, they will be challenged.
I don' t disagree with being challenged but I think there are ways to do it that are both supportive and challenging.

Again, I make the point that there are plenty of women who have opinions that simply aren't going to be very articulate and may appear to be ignorant. But they are no doubt the result of their lived experience and whilst yes, maybe they should be challenged, why not in a way that supports or shows a different view point? Why does it have to be in a mocking or belittling way?

Lass yes we are. Some people are arses, and should be called out on it, yet someone comes along and accuses everyone on here of being mean, and what we should do to fix it. What should be done is callout those individual attacks at the time, report etc, and not then ask everyone else to "just be nice"

@ Lasswi......

That is why being able to back up and articulate arguments in full is most often a good thing. it takes away from the often combative force of strong opinions aggressively asserted, which are then experienced as personal attacks.