Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

Sorry R0wantrees - I couldn't work out whether you quoted my post because you were agreeing or disagreeing with it! I listen to these things on Woman's Hour, but there is presumably a large proportion of the population who would never dream of listening to Radio 4, never mind Woman's Hour, and do not read the Telegraph either. I live in rural-ish NW England and this is not a topic of conversation that seems to come up tbh. There are a couple of trans kids at the local secondary school, but afaik no furore surrounding this.

Agree with you on the mangoes Kitten. I suppose green would work too. I don't think Blue Drinks have anything healthy in them even blueberries.

More trivia: the bar was in downtown LA, catered to B movie types, and I think the original "blue" was a reference to a type of movie.

I think in future years people will still know the difference, they'll just have been stripped of the language to articulate that difference.

Their sexual behaviour will still express genital preferences, it will still be the sort of women who have babies who get screwed over for lower pay/job loss on getting pregnant/passed over for promotion.

Women of the old fashioned variety will know on an instinctive level that they are "getting the fuzzy end of the lollipop" but won't be able to express how this is being done to them. And any attempt to recreate the language they'd need to articulate this will be shut down as "exclusionary" and "transphobic". It's a brilliant tool in the patriarchy's tool kit.

To use that oft-mentioned slogan: "if you can't see sex, you can't see sexism" - or in this case "if you can't talk about sex, you can't talk about sexism".

Considering, how significantly hormone levels change over the life span of an adult human female, let alone a female from birth to death - it is quite absurd (and rude, too) to link womanhood to hormone levels.

Knittink apologies, yes I thought the Telegraph article supported your post.
It's also indicative that more & more people are becoming aware.

Nah, I see a full tech fully monitored artificial uterus as more probable.

I don't disagree. Whatever happens I can foresee the one function of womanhood that we take as being what separates us from men, being taken over.

I don’t think most of society is even aware of the mantra transwomen are women, then there is the stage of understanding the real implications of this statement in practice then the stage of deciding whether to accept if the rights of transwomen to be validated are greater than the human rights of women. My view is that society will see sense and trans people can have the third space they desperately need.

We're forgetting about the future of the transpeople themselves.

The medicine is bad medicine, the side effects are significant and the surgery is complex and has a high complication rate.

Many transpeople are self medicating with online purchases- goodness knows what they are actually putting into their bodies.

There is such a rise in numbers that there can't possibly all be dysphoric. Once these people get sick from side effects or need catheters from their cheap surgery bought in India...then we'll see whether TWAW or not.

they are not

Weetabix That comment only speaks of you.

Of course.

Proof of the pudding is in the eating I guess. I think finding a partner who doesn't mind the mismatch between reproductive system (and genitalia) and outward presentation of gender is tough. You've a lot smaller pool of people to date. I know it's really tough. If that changes maybe society truly accepts that then maybe trans women are women and trans men are men.

Personally I have a hard wired sexual preference and can't imagine ever feeling otherwise. I think the vast majority of people would feel the same way. I really doubt they'll change.

I have shared toilets with trans women. It was fine. Bit depressed about the amount of piss I'll have to mop up if all loos become unisex. I have shared mixed sex changing rooms (with private cubicles) also fine. But I do worry about the studies showing crime goes up in these areas. It was fine for me but clearly not for others.

I'm not happy about places where people sleep, are naked, and/or are particularly vulnerable. Hospitals/ hostels/ prisons. Seriously, safeguarding needs to come in. I don't understand how this effects the laws on indecent exposure? If a person with a penis is in my female gym communal changing area (like the Norwegian case), and seeing their penis makes me distressed surely that's wrong? Didnt the pink news editor also say that such exposure was wrong?

I'm always drawn back to that Yale university study saying xx or xy markers are in every cell of our body. Transwomen are transwomen. Transmen are transmen. Stop trying to define the very essence of woman and man, based on your personal gender incongruence .

Interesting question op. Thanks!

I live in rural-ish NW England and this is not a topic of conversation that seems to come up tbh.

One of my relatives who lives in similarly rural area brought up the Woman's Hour episode with Bex Stinson & Helen Lewis. He doesn't listen to it as such, likely had R4 on in car.

He articulated almost word for word the same response as the Telegraph journalist. Also very dismissive and suspicious of any individual/ organisation which doesnt allow open discussion and scrutiny.
The words, 'bloody ridiculous' were used a few times.
(He's definitely not a 'gen-critter')

It may well be, that this function may be taken over by tech or do Weet. But even then, and even in a scenario where only super wealthy elites survive, the males can still exert power over the females by impregnating them against their will, no matter who identifies as what. Talk about the more things change the more they stay the same...

For better or for worse it will be Middle England getting fed up with all the nonsense and demands to agree with bloody ridiculous things that brings the train to a halt in the end. Never underestimate the power of profound irritation.

Can't happen soon enough.

Sarah Ditum's recent speech at WPUK Bath is worth watching.
She makes the point that the issues with gender identity ideology are part of the wider picture whih is women's rights.

Includes mention of the significant role that MN has played and why its not surprising.

I meant ‚tech or so‘.

I think there may be a kickback in society around liberal excess more generally. I think people are beginning to wake up to the impact of self determination versus societal rule. I don’t think we would want to lose our tolerance as that is what makes us a brilliant country to live in but we do need to accept some of that freedom to do as we please has created a hedonistic, ‘not give a fig’ about others culture and allowed minority groups to dominate society whether that be trans activists, right wing extremism increasing and drunken brawls in many high streets.

Any rational though process shows men cannot become women just because they want to. It’s sad they feel they don’t belong in their own bodies but it’s a mental health issue. Of course, men who dress as women shouldn’t suffer abuse, of course people who choose to present as the opposite sex as adults shouldn’t be mistreated but should we encourage children to follow suit? Absolutely not. Just as tolerance of young teenage sex and drinking is harmful, so is allowing young children to follow a route it may be hard to pull back from.
We need to stop saying gender and sex are two different things too.

Also with regards sharing mixed-sex toilets (aka gender neutral / unisex), there was a really fascinating and important speech WPUK Bath:

'Professor Clara Greed is Professor of Inclusive Urban Planning at the University of the West of England, Bristol, and a specialist in toilet provision with particular emphasis upon women's needs.'

This is really worth watching, she's a brilliant speaker.

For better or for worse it will be Middle England getting fed up with all the nonsense

Middle-Scotland, middle-Wales and Middle-Northern Ireland will help too, I'm sure

I agree, you can see it in the comments sections of trans articles, people in general just don't buy it and at some point politicians will actually have to listen.

The Middle Scotland version should hopefully include a lot of swearing! I'm very much looking forward to it.

Who knows where science will take us? Maybe men will be able to have babies at some point?

I suspect lung transplants might be routine by that point and you could get one done duting your lunch break but I don’t advocate giving cigarettes to children.

Maybe one day we can abolish death but there no reason to suspect that medical advances will continue exponentially.

During the bulk of human history we made no progress at all. What seems like an exponential rise to us might just be because we are on the steep midsection of an S-curve.

I suspect your friend lacks a little empathy OP. "she claims not to feel women are really impacted," She is clearly not impacted by it, but can she really not see that female prisoners sexually assaulted by a trans woman, or sportswomen who find themselves competing against trans women, may have felt some impact?

6/11/18 Spectator: 'Mumsnet and the British media aren’t ‘transphobic’
Robert Jackman
concludes:

'When you look closer, though, you realise that the Trump proposal is essentially the mirror-image of what the self-ID lobby is calling for. And the differences don’t stop there: for a start, both are deeply ideological positions which rely on a religious or political belief and then apply this to all cases. Crucially, neither system is able to apply discretion or accept that – in some circumstances – one metric (biological sex or gender identity) makes more sense than the other.

This is why many British newspapers have expressed concerns about the GRA reform: not because of any underlying bigotry but because it seeks to apply a fringe ideological conviction to an immensely complicated question.

Oddly, the Outline lays the blame for this supposed media bigotry at an unlikely door: Mumsnet. The article claims that some of Mumsnet’s 14 million users have developed an “obsession” with transgender issues. It’s true that transgender issues are frequently discussed on Mumsnet – but why assume this is down to bigotry, rather than the fact that many of these concerns (the housing of male sex offenders in women’s prisons, for example) resonate deeply with the women of Middle England?

The writer isn’t wrong that Mumsnet holds deep influence – just not necessarily with the media. When I spoke to someone who knows the consultation well, they mentioned the “Mumsnet effect” – the fact that the Government had received cautious responses from women all over the UK, representing all ages and backgrounds. The responses calling for the more ideological system, however, tended to be concentrated in smaller clusters, usually from London and university cities – places which typically vote Labour.

Ultimately it will be this kind of political pragmatism which will probably persuade ministers against uprooting the GRA system. Blaming it on the Times and the Guardian might seem tempting – but it’s ultimately untrue."

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/11/mumsnet-and-the-british-media-arent-transphobic/

what if actually society moves to a place where there is no male and female? There is no gender?

If there’s no gender there’s no transgender.

Transgenderism is the resurgence of gender after decades of deconstructing it.

We need to stop saying gender and sex are two different things too.

Why? My sex has nothing to do with the gender stereotypes foisted upon me.

I don't disagree. Whatever happens I can foresee the one function of womanhood that we take as being what separates us from men, being taken over.

Your use of the term ‘taken over’ says it all.