Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

*A lot of us though are cross at our children being taught that you CAN change your sex from the one you were born as though

But supposing our children DO accept what they are being taught despite our efforts *

No male will spontaneously grow ovaries and a uterus just because society accepts that you can change sex. Biological reality isn't going to change because a majority of people want it to.

My 14 year old daughter is gender critical, so are her two best friends. Her French teacher said my favourite sentence in a teacher parent evening about her a few weeks ago "X knows her own mind and I really respect that in a teenager". Her and her mates are quite dismissive of all the attention seeking wokery.

It's possible that Britain will go crazy for a few decades and that TWAW will become a generally accepted notion. But...

Nature always reasserts itself. It is not possible to change sex and never will be.

It is 100 percent impossible that transgender philosophy will be accepted the world over. Even if the UK goes down this road, Pakistan, Singapore, Mali, Mongolia and most other countries will not. The majority of the world will continue to base its perceptions of male/female on material reality. The cultural basis for transgenderism will continue to be blindingly obvious. The elephant in the room.

Actual motherhood changes everything for many women, even if they had a lot of contact with mothers previously. Women will continue to have babies and start asking questions.

Growing old and frail changes everything too. Mixed sex toilets feel a lot more threatening when you are physically weaker than the weakest man.

WaitWhatTheActual people will in fact not have time to pander. Climate change is happening and will get worse. That will cause major social changes, and periods of major social changes are not happy times.

The current trans insistence that they are the EXACT SAME AS ANY WOMAN EVER may end up being the very thing that endangers TW the most, especially when its coupled with "there is no real definition of woman".

It's nonsensical. Misogynistic too, but mostly just bat shit, Trump level science denying crazy.

I'm a student of history. As it is being pursued currently, the trans agenda is a decadence movement. That umbrella is far too large, and the temper tantrum persistence is far too annoying.

Trans folks should be working on a third way, and start recognizing that while some have genuine GD, that GD is the result of hormones flooding the brain of a fetus, and not an extra chromosome that results in parts that need to be called the opposite sex by strangers on the street.

Who knows where science will take us? Maybe men will be able to have babies at some point?

Interesting to prioritise the experience of the having of babies by men rather than the needs of the babies to be gestated and born in the best way for them. Which will always be in the sexed bodies designed for this purpose eg women's.

So many males who are transgender seem fixed on this 'utopian possibility'. I notice with their comments its all about them 'wanting to be pregnant', 'wanting to breast feed'.

I believe it is possible Future Generations will accept TWAW. It very much depends on how Society develops, of course. Look at Sweden, where it is considered unacceptable to analyse male Violence data according to ethnicity, as it is comsidered xenophobic. Germany is not far behind. A prominent journalism school there invited conservative proponents of Islam, who in turn warned to Give a platform to 3 ‚islamophobic‘ experts/jounalists (two of whom are muslim Arabs, all 3 grew up in the Middle East or Egypt, all are progressive, one - once himself a supporter of the muslim brotherhood, but changing his mind completely during his life and studies in Germany - has a project in Berlin where he teaches boys that Protecting the honor of their sister means protecting her Right to make her own, free choices). The journalism School won‘t Talk to them, and that is that. Twitter is quite ready to shut Accounts in that Vein down (not only the Hateful ones.) German children TV showed Cross cultural relationships, where it was depicted as normal, that the 15 year old girl has to navigate and negotiate what clothes, Friends and behaviour her 17/18 year old boyfriend, who was brought up in a patriarchal Culture (contrary to her), finds acceptable.
People know what not to Talk about not to upset people, and increasingly they know, what not to think.
So, when governments are determined to sacrifice women‘s rights and freedoms - or any rights and freedoms for that matter - in the Name of Harmony, it is entirely possible. Most people will just be happy to conform with societal expectations. The others can easily be just vilified by throwing them into the same category as white supremacists or evangelical loons and silenced.
It is worth saying that a friend of mine who worked on a documentary in North Korea came home convinced that most of the childlike, naive trust and deference of the people to their ‚father‘ leader she witnessed was genuine.

Our biology is part our hormones. Trans women are feminised by hormones. It is a difficult struggle, but 99% of trans people have no regrets. Their biggest struggle is against society's rejection of them.

Having said that, I have no issue with them living as women and using facilities like toilets and changing rooms and in my peer group I don’t know anyone who thinks it’s a problem to have them in those spaces. We are mid twenties to mid thirties. My mum (late 60s) is also unbothered by the thought of trans women in women’s facilities.

By this, do you mean anyone who identifies as a woman? Because 80% of them still have a fully functioning penis. You are okay with yourself or let's say your 16 year old daughter being alone with such a person in the train station toilets late at night?

What about a bepenised person rubbing moisturiser into their thighs whilst watching you and you five year old daughter get changed after swimming?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs?

I don't think it's men who need the education. Put it this way, if men - as a class - can be educated / socialised to a place where they no longer feel the need to harass, hurt and kill women then yes, maybe things will be very different. I doubt whether I'll be here to see it myself.

As for your friend - well I was a feminist from 18 but in my 20s I was very much the cool girl and would have seen sharing toilets as progress. It was another 20 years before I fully realised how different the world was for men.

R0wantrees
I'm not "prioritising" the needs of men. I was just exploring an idea that who knows where the world will be in a few hundred years time?

They are already exploring womb transplants, indeed I think a baby has already born in this way (unless I dreamt it), we have many children born to women past the menopause.

Who knows how society will view the function of procreation? Maybe it will be "A brave new world" with babies gestated in incubators in a laboratory or cloning will be fully utilised?

If you look at where science and medicine have brought us today compared to where we were 500, 200 or even 100 years from now I can easily believe that very little will remain unchanged a few hundred years from now, including human biology.

Unless of course an apocalypse occurs and humans return to cave dwellers.

I don't think it's men who need the education.
Soz, posted pre-caffeine. I mean I think it's men who need the education, not women.

So, when governments are determined to sacrifice women‘s rights and freedoms - or any rights and freedoms for that matter - in the Name of Harmony, it is entirely possible. Most people will just be happy to conform with societal expectations. The others can easily be just vilified by throwing them into the same category as white supremacists or evangelical loons and silenced.

If you haven't seen it yet, do watch the exchange at Liverpool Council.
A women from Liverpool Resisters gives a speech solely about the need for dialogue to ensure the protection of safeguarding frameworks and women's rights.
Listen to the Mayor's speech and then watch the reaction by council members.

from 16:00

The men who hate and oppress women will always be able to correctly identify

It won't happen because it's a question of numbers.

Genuinely dysphoric men are rare. And the number of other men who are aware of the issue is relatively low. Predators included.

As soon as more men know how exploitable it is, they'll start exploiting it. Look at the priesthood.

More women will be affected. And the backlash will grow.

Thousands of women being passed over at interview/for promotion in favour of 'women' who can never get pregnant.

The death of women's sport - Serena Williams being beaten by a mediocre man.

Lawsuits of unhappy, infertile 30 year olds who can't find a life partner and who see their peers being far more fulfilled.

And mixed sex everything leading to an upsurge in assaults.

It doesn't affect your friend yet.

Feminists are currently on high alert to each significant detrimental incident.

As they increase, more people will be directly impacted.

I fear that is the way it is going. It seems to be fashionable and all the rage atm.
But it won't ever be the case for me personally. Trans is NOT a woman.

Can no one foresee a future where society is divided into a sort of "workers" and "breeders" type scenario?

I can see a time where we keep an uneducated subclass to give birth to the next generation (the surrogate group homes in India spring to mind) and another superior class who go to work.

I could conceive of science developing such that men are adapted to also give birth and be part of this sub class meanwhile women in the worker class will be prohibited from having babies in order not to disrupt their working potential.

May well be the product of an over active imagination of some sci fi nightmare but it's not a scenario that I would definitely discount.

Being a mother is being less and less valued in society whilst going to work and having a career is heavily encouraged. Take it to the nth degree and that's where it ends up.

Our biology is part our hormones. Trans women are feminised by hormones

No, and that failure to understand basic science is one of the blindspots in the current trans movement. The only interesting part about it is the absolute insistence that being able to read the literature is "bigotry".

Hormones are part of our biology, not the other way around.

Some trans women (by the current definition - the umbrella is too large) are given gender dysphoria during gestation, but it doesn't give them female anatomy or the ability to secrete female hormones for themselves. It has a biological cause. It is not female biology.

I'd suggest reading up on the eugenics movement in early 20th century US. The reliance on underresearched preconceived notions passing as science is the closest parallel I know.

99% of trans people have no regrets

I'm not aware of any research to support this assertion.

They are already exploring womb transplants, indeed I think a baby has already born in this way (unless I dreamt it)

Its at an early stage and yes there have been some babies born.
www.bbc.com/news/health-44360786

Context for women (adult human females):
"There are many thousands of women in the UK who either do not have a viable womb or who have had their womb removed following cancer or another serious illness. Here are a few facts:

One in every 5000 women in the UK is born without a womb.
In 2007 alone there were 2,200 women aged between 15 and 44 who were born without a womb.
In the 15 to 24 year old age group in the UK, around a thousand young women have hysterectomies every year."
wombtransplantuk.org/about/why

^interesting therefore how much comment there is already online by a few male surgeon's with god complexes and a significant number of males who identify as women for whom the idea that men could be pregnant would be the ultimate 'validation' of the belief that 'transwomen are women'.

If science found a way to implant a horn on my forehead I still wouldn't be a unicorn.

Honestly, the only way any of the arguments being put forward in favor her make sense is if you've already decided that the wishes of transwomen are more important than literally everything else (other people, what's good for society, scientific feasibility) and therefore all that remains is to figure out how they can be fulfilled, no matter at what cost.

Thank you R0wantrees, looks like we see a pattern there, eh? Luckily the Mayor quickly realized that it was all just hate ‚masked‘ by arguments, so there is no need for discussion, right?

I would have thought it was a non issue at university, and in fact most of feminism. That was before 20 years of being fucked over by the patriarchical nature of our society. Everything is easy when you're young, just out of school, beaten the boys at A levels, everything equal at university. It the world of work, relationships and children where the wifework, drudgery, discrimination and biological humiliation really kicks in. I dont see many men having to deal with being in a room full of people, naked, bleeding, covered in various bodily fluids, with people putting their hands up you. Nor do I see many men trying to maintain a career while doing most of the childcare and housework, not to me tion putting up with the sexual discrimination and harassment that all women face. Then being told some men who havent had to deal with any of that are more women than I am because they've chosen it and take hormones (as a transwoman acquaintance told me). Er, no.

She'll chnage her mind i should think. Ask her the same question 10 years down the line post-children.

No not accepted fully as simple fact is there not women no matter how look at it

Weetabix why on Earth, considering that our planet can‘t sustain more than a billion humans max in the long run and considering the advent of AI that will do what workers (and teachers, and doctors...) once did, why on Earth would humanity be in need of a ‚breeder class‘? Pretty sure the Elites want the privilege of reproduction - and of genetically carrying on the human race - for themselves.
If the Elites have any brains and sociopathy, they‘ll just kill us all off once AI is firmly established.

Interestingdebate, if that ever happens, I sincerely hope I'll be dead first!

This is a really interesting lecture by Peter Saunders, at the start he shows a FASCINATING clip of a guy asking US students questions about identity. Depressingly many of them parrot the TWAW mantra, but as his questions move on to race and age they start to visibly squirm.