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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

999 replies

interestingdebatetoday · 28/11/2018 23:41

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

OP posts:
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AngryAttackKittens · 29/11/2018 07:56

I think someone saw Mad Max Fury Road and thought, now how can I combine this with The Matrix, deep.

FloralBunting · 29/11/2018 08:01

Bloody nora, its a bit early in the morning Mad Max, innit? Dan Walker is as hard-core as I get at this point in the day...

AngryAttackKittens · 29/11/2018 08:02

Sounded a bit box of tissues needed to me, honestly.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 08:04

Thank you R0wantrees, looks like we see a pattern there, eh? Luckily the Mayor quickly realized that it was all just hate ‚masked‘ by arguments, so there is no need for discussion, right?

There's a lot of background which may be relevent to Mayor Joe Anderson's refusal/ blocking of discussions about safeguarding frameworks and women's rights.

Plenty there which have nothing to do with possible discrimination against people who identify as transgender.

There is a well understood history and pattern to the motivations those who wish to dismantle safeguarding frameworks, women's rights, free speech, democratic process etc

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3364329-Motion-against-Liverpool-ReSisters-by-Liverpool-City-Council

Knittink · 29/11/2018 08:04

It's easy to assume that more people buy into TWAW than really do. There are probably huge not-so-woke swathes of the country where the issue is barely noticed yet, and will be greeted with horror or bafflement when it does. TWAW is so obviously factually incorrect, I just don't believe it will ever be swallowed wholesale.

KindOfAGeek · 29/11/2018 08:04

I'm in the mood for dystopia. Bring it. Ooops now I'm flashing to unicorns....

FloralBunting · 29/11/2018 08:06

Kind, I'm sure the unicorns are very shocked.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 08:06

I think someone saw Mad Max Fury Road and thought, now how can I combine this with The Matrix, deep.

Maybe also watched an odd episode of the adaptation of Margaret Atwoods, 'The Handmaids Tale' rather than reading the book?

Weetabixandshreddies · 29/11/2018 08:07

Pretty sure the Elites want the privilege of reproduction - and of genetically carrying on the human race - for themselves

And the notion that they might not want to do the pregnancy/giving birth part of that is unthinkable?

Women's bodies are already "bought" in order to give birth to babies that aren't genetically theirs aren't they? They are simply seen as incubators. I could see, in a few hundred years time (not next week!) that anyone deemed "not elite" could be used in this way.

I already see how being a woman or being feminine is looked down upon. To get on in the world of work many women, in my experience, are encouraged to develop more masculine traits and conform to more "masculine behaviours".

Is it such a stretch that in future those with more feminine traits will be deemed breeders whilst those more masculine will be seen to be elite?

Who knows. I'll be long gone by then.

KindOfAGeek · 29/11/2018 08:08

Floral I'm sure they are...

AngryAttackKittens · 29/11/2018 08:09

I'm rather attached to the idea of my dystopia including either a new ice age or zombies, personally. Possibly because Waterworld was so shit.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 08:10

It's easy to assume that more people buy into TWAW than really do. There are probably huge not-so-woke swathes of the country where the issue is barely noticed yet, and will be greeted with horror or bafflement when it does. TWAW is so obviously factually incorrect, I just don't believe it will ever be swallowed wholesale.

Telegraph review of Woman's Hour 'Sex & Gender' series:
'How Woman's Hour exposed the tensions at the heart of the transgender debate'
by JEMIMA LEWIS

Gender is such a hot topic – more of an inferno, really – that it’s easy to get your fingers burnt. Last March, Woman’s Hour presenter Jenni Murray wrote a long, nuanced article arguing that trans women who grow up male don’t experience the world in the same way as natal women. For this, she was publicly rebuked by Stonewall, accused of transphobia and added to the student union blacklist of Wicked Old Women.

Now it’s the turn of her co-presenter, Jane Garvey, to slap on a hard hat, grab a hose and dash into the burning building. All this week and last, Garvey has been hosting a series of debates on gender, trying to understand the conflict between feminists and trans activists, and – a genuine public service, this – render it comprehensible to the average listener. One of the weirdest things about this argument is how hard it is to understand. Every single one of us has personal experience of sex and gender; yet the subject has become so encrusted in jargon that only the most obsessively interested parties can follow the conversation.

“What are sex and gender?” Garvey asked at the start of the first debate, last Monday. Sociologist Sally Hines cleared her throat and attempted clarity. It didn’t last long. “Sex, I would argue, is a very complex mix of chromosomes, hormones and genitals… So we are talking about biological factors, but we’re not talking about anything at all which is straightforward…. We are talking about a complex mix of factors which, especially in the West, have often been seen through a binary framework.”

You could practically hear Garvey’s eyeballs rolling in her head. I share her impatience with the self-important verbosity of gender politics. And if Garvey sometimes seems exasperated by her trans guests, who can blame her? They keep refusing to take part in a proper debate – insisting on recording their interviews separately from the enemy.

This Monday’s discussion was supposed to be about how to improve communication between the two sides. But Bex Stinson, head of trans equality at Stonewall, refused to appear in the studio with her opposite number (Helen Lewis of the New Statesman) on the grounds that the debate was too toxic. The mad circularity of this argument – I won’t try to have a civilised conversation because the conversation is too uncivilised – was especially baffling because Lewis is one of the gentler critics of the trans lobby.

She already believes that trans women are women, deserving of the same rights and respect as other women. Yet, said Lewis, because she doesn’t subscribe to every element of trans doctrine, Stinson apparently regards her as a dangerous bigot. And “if she’s saying that about me”, added Lewis cleverly, “she’s saying that about – I would say – 95 per cent of Woman’s Hour listeners.” That’s how to win a debate: speak plain English, know your audience – and above all, be in the room." (continues)

www.telegraph.co.uk/radio/what-to-listen-to/womans-hour-exposed-tensions-heart-transgender-debate/

Weetabixandshreddies · 29/11/2018 08:10

Maybe also watched an odd episode of the adaptation of Margaret Atwoods, 'The Handmaids Tale' rather than reading the book?

If you're referring to me, no I never watched it.

What I do find interesting is how only some women's thoughts and views are deemed worthy whilst other women's views are disparaged isn't it? Maybe we are closer to my world view than I thought, led by certain women quick to chuck other "lesser" women under the bus.

KindOfAGeek · 29/11/2018 08:11

New Age Iced Zombies sounds like a killer cocktail.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/11/2018 08:18

There is the drink called a Zombie, I suppose it could be made into an alcoholic slushie like a daquiri?

AspieAndProud · 29/11/2018 08:21

*Feminist4

Our biology is part our hormones. Trans women are feminised by hormones. It is a difficult struggle, but 99% of trans people have no regrets. Their biggest struggle is against society's rejection of them.*

If transgenderism is caused by hormones then there should be an objective hormone test for it so there’s no need for self ID.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 08:22

What I do find interesting is how only some women's thoughts and views are deemed worthy whilst other women's views are disparaged isn't it? Maybe we are closer to my world view than I thought, led by certain women quick to chuck other "lesser" women under the bus.

Weetabix That comment only speaks of you.

bluescreen · 29/11/2018 08:23

I agree with pps who say that motherhood is likely to change her view.

But I'm wondering if there is going to be a difference between two main types of trans in terms of how society generally will accept them. I can foresee it will be much easier to assimilate those unfortunate child-transitioners who have had puberty blockers and then hormone treatment. Trans women in that situation won't (largely) have had the benefit of testosterone and male socialisation. Their situation will be very different from late transitioners.

KindOfAGeek · 29/11/2018 08:24

There's a bar, now out of business, that made Blue Drinks. Those became Zombies when the bartender moved on. Triva!

It was originally a slushie type, and if someone add some crafted brew alcohol to make it New Age..... got it.

FloralBunting · 29/11/2018 08:25

I'm one of those very strange people that thinks you should always respect a person, by virtue of them being a person, but their views are completely fair game to critique.

I would say I was a feminist and therefore I prioritize women's rights in most of my thinking these days, even the women I dislike or disagree with. That doesn't equate to thinking that every woman is always right about everything or that I have to give equal weight to every woman's beliefs. There are women who believe FGM is entirely right and good. I don't need to give their opinion any significant weight at all.

AngryAttackKittens · 29/11/2018 08:26

I had a Blue Drink once that was mango flavored, which was a bit disconcerting because I expect mango flavored things to be orange. Then again, what flavor is blue? What food is blue, naturally? Feel like blueberries aren't a very good cocktail ingredient...

NotTerfNorCis · 29/11/2018 08:27

Trans women are feminised by hormones

This is an interesting contradiction. If transwomen only find out what it's like to feel female after taking hormones, what made them think they were women before?

AngryAttackKittens · 29/11/2018 08:27

Or a sort of orangey yellow, I suppose. Certainly not blue!

deepwatersolo · 29/11/2018 08:31

Nah, I see a full tech fully monitored artificial uterus as more probable. Why depend on a woman who might harm my child with high stress levels or autoaggression. Far better to have the foetus tended to by AI in my own home. I can read to foetus when I feel the need or show off with the breeding device when visitors come, like nowadays people do with a fancy full wall sea water aquarium.

R0wantrees · 29/11/2018 08:32

Our biology is part our hormones. Trans women are feminised by hormones

Taking cross-sex hormones causes side-effects.

I met a lovely older man recently who talked about his successful treatment for cancer which involved being given a form of oestrogen.

It had been really successful and he was living well and cancer free.
He described some of the side effects, including 'little man boobs' as he called them.
He had taken this in his stride.
He's still as male a man.
Just as masculine as he was before.

When I had a total hysterectomy (for medical neccesity) in my 30's, I had immediate surgical menopause.
There were some side effects due to the drastic hormone profile change.
I'm just as female a woman
Im just as feminine as I was before.

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