Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

Oh, what danger does a 9 year old present! Sorry, genuinely missed that when I was scanning through.

Look - I believe trans women are men. I believe they present the same threat to women as any other male bodied person. I believe that women should be have single sex spaces, free of adult males.

I also believe that 9 year old boys are not men and should not be treated as such.

I really do not think I am some kind of handmaiden based on this opinion.

But the world would not end if it was 10.

Ten years old is one year off secondary school! The point at which parental participation becomes virtually non-existent.

No one should be leaving it that late.

Not all changing rooms have enough cubicals so people get changed at the benches in the changing rooms in my local pool.
Its not about the world ending

At the end of the day FEMALES are ENTITLED to SEX SEGREGATED spaces.
We do not have to justify why we want them to remain so. We do not have to answer to anyone who wants to remove our rights.

If a public space has the rule that 9 yo and over should change in the same sex area then at the end of the day follow that rule or do not use the facility. Simple.

I really do not think I am some kind of handmaiden based on this opinion.

Nor do I. And in order to mitigate risk, more family changing rooms should perhaps be provided.

No one is arguing with that.
They're arguing with the fact that single six provision should not be affected by it.

Actually, as per deepwatersolo, I should say, the world will end whether or not it is 8 or 10.

Now we're talking.

My children are currently 7 and 9. I am presently at the point where I am gently and slowly relinquishing control. Perhaps when I have gone through that process, I will be a bit more brutal with those (like me now) namby pambying about giving their children that freedom.

However, its equally possible that the age of 8 was set long, long ago, in a time when child abuse was swept under the carpet, when paedophiles didn't have forums to meet up and compare notes on offending, and then never revisited,

Boys are not men. No one has the right to be offended by a baby penis. At some point, the right to be offended by, and protected from, that penis, supercedes the rights of the penis-bearer. 9 is not some magical age when that happens.

I very much doubt any research has been done in the last twenty years to come up with that specific age. My hunch is that it is a bullshit figure, much like 10,000 steps a day, or a BMI of 25. Given the lack of justification, I think I am -perfectly- within my rights to say, actually, I think that limit is wrong.

Those of you with daughters then did their dads never take them out without a female to accompany them or we you completely relaxed about them using changing roo.s unsupervised? There was never any problem?

Do you think my 11 yo DDs should not have the right to change in a female space with a 9 yo boy being there?

Are they not allowed dignity and privacy to change away from boys their own age?

Around 9 children become much more self aware. Some children mostly girls start to develope from 9 onwards, they do not want to change in front of the opposite sex and sex segregation means they do not have to.

Those of you with daughters then did their dads never take them out without a female to accompany them or we you completely relaxed about them using changing roo.s unsupervised? There was never any problem?

My ex has taken our dds swimming their whole life. Up to the age of 8 they used a family room then they went in to the female changingroom on their own. Never any incidebts. Same with public toilets. We seperated when the twins were 7 yo and as we have 50 50 he has taken them everywhere on hus own and never once had an incident with them using toilets or changing rooms.

My husband and I used to take one child each when they were very little. I think he was more traumatised by the screaming than they were by any penises in the proximity. As for toilets, we used to plan quite carefully. I recall BHS had a good loo in its cafe that was just about the only one he could reasonably use. If we didn't know the area well, he would have really struggled.

I am actually very proud that my husband was one of the few men in the UK who used his 50% of the available m/paternity leave for both of our children, so use of facilities came up quite a bit for him.

Yes girls should have privacy - which they get in a cubicle.

You say that girls start to develop around 9 years old, and so should not have to change around boys. But the boys don't change at that age very often. The point is, we are talking about prepubescent boys here. Not men.

Yes girls should have privacy - which they get in a cubicle.

Not all changing rooms have enough cubicles so people get changed as the benches in my local pool.
Sorry but having cubicles in female changing rooms does not mean males can be in there.
It is a female changing room. Why are you struggling with that?

Its not actually a female changing room, though, is it? Its a female and young male changing room.

You say that girls start to develop around 9 years old, and so should not have to change around boys. But the boys don't change at that age very often. The point is, we are talking about prepubescent boys here. Not men.

So what if the boys dont change at that age? The girls do and as they are in a female space boys should not be there. Its very simple.

If a 9 year old girl feels embarrassed by the presence of an 8 year old boy, should the boy be removed?

Its not actually a female changing room, though, is it? Its a female and young male changing room.

Now you are just being pathetic

Yes young boys can be in female changingrooms that is why an age limit is given of around 9 yo as it is expected those boys no longer need the womans supervision.

Why do you have such an issue with females having a right to female spaces and dignity?

I'm not being pathetic. I'm not having an issue with females having a right to female spaces and dignity. I am arguing that we are setting the threshold between boyhood and manhood too low.

If a 9 year old girl feels embarrassed by the presence of an 8 year old boy, should the boy be removed?

If he is in the female changing room tgen yes.
Truth is it is a female space however young male children are accepted as they are young/need their carer/and most females pay no attention to young children. It is not a right for any male to be in a female changing room.

And then, I am only arguing that its wrong by about 2 years. I think claiming that makes me pathetic and woman hating is pretty extreme.

I am arguing that we are setting the threshold between boyhood and manhood too low.

You just dont get it do you.
Its not about boyhood or manhood.
Its got fuck all to do with males.

Females have a right to female only spaces. The end.

And then, I am only arguing that its wrong by about 2 years. I think claiming that makes me pathetic and woman hating is pretty extreme.

What was pathetic was this Its not actually a female changing room, though, is it? Its a female and young male changing room.

Also where did i say you were woman hating?

Copy and paste where I said that!!

Or are you just a liar?

That argument makes no sense at all, unless you are arguing that women should not be able to take their male babies swimming. Its clearly not about male, or female, but about the maturity of those males.

"Why do you have such an issue with females having a right to female spaces and dignity?"

You did not say I hated women. I paraphrased.

Girls will absolutely NOT have to learn the lesson that they have to endure discomfort from males in their female spaces, that those males come first and that the only answer is to let themselves be driven out, whether to a cubicle, a toilet or permanently at home. That is not something any girl should be told. They have spaces and boundaries - both will be respected.