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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

999 replies

interestingdebatetoday · 28/11/2018 23:41

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

OP posts:
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6
Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 15:53

CosmicCanary

It isn't my child - my children are adults.

It's about other parents who I see on here describing how their lives are affected and from parents I know IRL.

These children don't all have disabilities, they simply need some more help because children don't all develop at the same rate.

I honestly think it's dangerous to let unattended children wander poolside.

Ereshkigal · 01/12/2018 15:54

Women who've experienced trauma from male violence don't count? Only some women matter, eh Weetabix?

We all know this is whataboutery that you fondly imagine undermines what the majority of players on the thread (which is about MTF trans people, not mothers of boys) feel about the importance of single sex female spaces.

Ereshkigal · 01/12/2018 15:55

Posters not players Grin

AspieAndProud · 01/12/2018 15:55

So only some women count then? So women, who happen to be the mothers of sons, don't matter?

Point me to the comment that suggested this.

I don’t think you are arguing in good faith. It’s impossible to be so consistently wrong in so many ways over so many days.

VickyEadie · 01/12/2018 15:56

I honestly think it's dangerous to let unattended children wander poolside.

You know when they go swimming from school? ALL the kids of the opposite sex from the teacher change unsupervised and can go through to the pool.

The teacher gives them an instruction and they do as they're told. A large group of them.

Ereshkigal · 01/12/2018 15:56

I don’t think you are arguing in good faith. It’s impossible to be so consistently wrong in so many ways over so many days.

I concur. Nice derail, too.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 15:57

I'm a big fan of family changing rooms at swimming pools, I have to say. If someone is distressed by the proximity of men with very few clothes on, then surely a mixed sex swimming pool isn't going to be any better than a mixed sex changing room.

I don't extend this to anything else, really. Changing rooms in shops are a different thing entirely.

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 15:58

Why are you all so determined to misunderstand?

I am not solely talking about getting dressed or going to the toilet.

I am talking about an 8 year old being able to pick up all of their belongings, find a locker, figure out operating the locker, locking it, finding their way to the pool and then waiting safely until the parent meets them.

Clearly none of your children have ever lost possessions at school, forgotten something, get dressed for school in the morning without your input, never fail to follow instruction, never get distracted, never break any rules?

nellodee · 01/12/2018 15:59

Aren't there swimming instructors at pool side? Also, as a teacher and a mother, having a class full of children follow your instruction and having your own children follow your instruction are two very, very different things.

VickyEadie · 01/12/2018 15:59

I am talking about an 8 year old being able to pick up all of their belongings, find a locker, figure out operating the locker, locking it, finding their way to the pool and then waiting safely until the parent meets them.

Again: You know when they go swimming from school? ALL the kids of the opposite sex from the teacher change unsupervised and can go through to the pool.

The teacher gives them an instruction and they do as they're told. A large group of them.

VickyEadie · 01/12/2018 16:00

Aren't there swimming instructors at pool side? Also, as a teacher and a mother, having a class full of children follow your instruction and having your own children follow your instruction are two very, very different things.

How so? Unpack that one for me about the parent and the teacher.

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 16:01

Women who've experienced trauma from male violence don't count? Only some women matter, eh Weetabix?

No not at all. There is a big difference between arguing against men being in a female only space and boys of 8 or 9.

AspieAndProud

Look at the post on the previous page

VickyEadie · 01/12/2018 16:01

Re the poolside instructors - there are lifeguards at the pools, you know.

VickyEadie · 01/12/2018 16:02

There is a big difference between arguing against men being in a female only space and boys of 8 or 9.

Is 9 your bar now? Only, earlier you said you wouldn't set one.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 16:02

Also, is it not the case that when children go swimming with school, there is no-one other than the children from that school there? When they go through to the other side, they will be greeted with an empty pool and instructors. Its an organised environment, and completely different to a single child going through into a swimming pool full of children playing.

VickyEadie · 01/12/2018 16:04

Also, is it not the case that when children go swimming with school, there is no-one other than the children from that school there? When they go through to the other side, they will be greeted with an empty pool and instructors. Its an organised environment, and completely different to a single child going through into a swimming pool full of children playing.

No. I've been swimming often when only part of the pool (or the separate children's pool) is set aside for a school group.

But you were going to explain how it's harder for a mother to get her 8 year old to do as he's told than it is for a teacher of a class of 30, of whom up to 18 might be boys...

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 16:04

You know when they go swimming from school? ALL the kids of the opposite sex from the teacher change unsupervised and can go through to the pool.

Not at my children's school. They had a male and female helper - one with the boys, one with the girls. Supervised them in and out of the changing rooms.

there are lifeguards at the pools, you know.

Yes and they're not infallible. An adult drowned in a pool near us because the lifeguards simply didn't see them go under.

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 16:06

Is 9 your bar now?

No, not my bar. I'm using the ages being referred to on here.

ErrolTheDragon · 01/12/2018 16:06

Our local pool has:
Mixed sex facilities
Single sex female facilities
Single sex male facilities
Facilities for disabled people and their carers
And some group changing rooms for whoever wants to use them together.

This is a normal sized council run pool.

A shopping centre has:
Any sex parent and child loos/babychange (self contained room large enough for pram and more than one child)
Women's loos
Men's loos
Accessible loos

In smaller places, all these options may not be possible - that's where any-sex self contained cubicles may be the best option.

Ereshkigal · 01/12/2018 16:07

No not at all. There is a big difference between arguing against men being in a female only space and boys of 8 or 9.

Which isn't what this thread is about. Why are you derailing it?

littlbrowndog · 01/12/2018 16:08

How have we gone from the original post to ppl dying inswimmin* pools
Wtaf is going on here

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 16:08

ErrolTheDragon

Which is excellent and obviously reflects needs.

Hopefully many more places will move towards this.

VickyEadie · 01/12/2018 16:08

Not at my children's school. They had a male and female helper - one with the boys, one with the girls. Supervised them in and out of the changing rooms.

Most primary schools have no male staff at all. You must know that.

My work (over many years) has involved me working with hundreds of primary schools, just so you know. And with knowing a lot about safeguarding.

Ereshkigal · 01/12/2018 16:08

How have we gone from the original post to ppl dying inswimmin* pools
Wtaf is going on here

Good question.

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 16:09

Which isn't what this thread is about. Why are you derailing it?

Because conversations evolve?

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