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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

999 replies

interestingdebatetoday · 28/11/2018 23:41

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

OP posts:
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ErrolTheDragon · 01/12/2018 17:09

I'm very dubious about the danger presented to women or girls by a ten year child under the jurisdiction of his mother.

Physical danger? Low.
Danger to girls, that they may decide they don't want to go swimming or do sports if they have to change with boys - significant.

CosmicCanary · 01/12/2018 17:11

I honestly think it's dangerous to let unattended children wander poolside.

Who is saying they should do that?

If your 8 yo cannot stand and wait for you at the entrance then they are not safe to be unsupervised therefore they should use the disabled access to change with their parent.

EverardDigby · 01/12/2018 17:20

I'm very dubious about the danger presented to women or girls by a ten year child under the jurisdiction of his mother.

My DD with her developing 10 year old body would no way have got undressed in front of a 10 yo classmate.

CosmicCanary · 01/12/2018 17:21

I'm very dubious about the danger presented to women or girls by a ten year child under the jurisdiction of his mother

It is not about danger Hmm

Do my 11 yo daughters not have the right ti privacy and dignity? Why should they have to change in the female changing room with a male their age?
Why should a 10 yo have to change in front of females does his dignity not matter?

Thete not 1 reason why males over 9 should be in female changing rooms or toilets.
Either they are capable of using the male facilities or if not then they need to use disabled/family ones.

InfiniteSheldon · 01/12/2018 17:21

Some excellent derailing going on to go back to the original OP. No transwomen are not women and never will it can be. However we may lose the word woman as we currently understand and use it(adult human female,) in which case we will need another word (probably used in secret but our word nonetheless) to define ourselves and transwomen won't be that. So decide now women do you want to be erased? Do you want to lose your sex based rights and protection? Do you want dignity, privacy the right to compete with a level playing field for you your daughters and granddaughters? Or not.

CosmicCanary · 01/12/2018 17:25

Yes sorry I missed a few pages Blush

No I dont think it will be fully accepted.

EverardDigby · 01/12/2018 17:26

I also think no because:

  1. Heterosexual men will not accept TWAW, and
  2. There will be a movement of detransitioners and/or TG people with significant health problems from hormones and other drugs.
EmotionsDontEngageWithbrain · 01/12/2018 17:30

In answer to op

No because there are to many intelligent strong women who’s knowledge & wisdom will continue to be passed down with each generation.

Who else going to pick up pieces of this mess. Trans women I believe will eventually have their own equal place, once over their self entitlement & it will weasel out the ones who just wish to abuse this current situation.

Datun · 01/12/2018 17:31

What I'm arguing for is a bit of common sense and choices of facilities.

There is a choice of facilities. Family changing, or the gents.

You are talking about an eight-year-old, who doesn't understand they mustn't jump in the pool because they can't swim, who can't open and close a locker and get undressed, whose mother desperately needs to take him swimming, but can't go with a friend, or get undressed quickly herself, or take him to swimming lessons. And who can't, for some reason, wait a year until he's more responsible, and who does not live within a reasonable distance of a pool with family changing.

I see this all the time on here when people question sex segregation. But what it was this? What it was like that? How about if I did this? What about if it was that scenario?

Narrower and narrower criteria, so that in the end you throw up your hands and go oh well, in that case, possibly!

No. Just no. Sex segregation means segregating by sex. Eight years old seems to be the cut-off point, recommended by children's charities and safeguarding agencies. Presumably based on research.

If it doesn't work for you, find a workaround that doesn't disadvantage women.

Datun · 01/12/2018 17:34

Sorry, I got caught up in the derail.

HestiaParthenos · 01/12/2018 17:40

If it doesn't work for you, find a workaround that doesn't disadvantage women.

So many people are so very, very unwilling to do that, it causes me to wonder if disadvantaging women isn't a side effect of them having their way, but in fact is the intended purpose, and the things they allegedly want are just an excuse to be able to disadvantage women and girls.

The whole trans movement sure is very effective at driving women out of sports, both professional and amateur, and at making sure girls don't even start professional sports.

Even those who don't mind having no privacy in the changing room and showers won't have a chance when forced to compete against males.

Rather too effective at disadvantaging women and girls for that to only be an unintended side effect.

deepwatersolo · 01/12/2018 17:52

Well, not to put a too fine point on it and coming back to the thread's actual topic: We're in the middle of the 6th mass extinction event of this planet and mammals larger than a chicken will not survive it, as things stand. So future generations will unfortunately not have a chance to go this nuts. No need to thank me for bringing things back on topic, it was a pleasure.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 17:55

I really do not know where everyone lives with all these 8 year old children who do what they are told by their parents even when their parents are not there. And before anyone criticises my parenting skills, I am not talking about my children here. Lots of my friends have children with SEN who they cannot trust to make sensible decisions (strangely, and statistically improbably, all of their children are female, so they do not have to deal with these issues).

However, working against this is the fact that people who take their children swimming regularly, tend to have children who -can- swim by the age of eight. The majority of children who cannot swim by the age of eight, sadly are not taken swimming. Statistically, this means people who drown rarely do so in pools, because people who go to swimming pools correlate heavily with people who can swim.

In other words, huge amounts of people who probably should take their children swimming and have problems with them not being able to swim, don't. So, its not really an issue that effects many people.

However - saying that children should be able to go in other sex changing rooms when accompanied by a parent of the other sex is the same as wanting to abolish single sex changing rooms is absolute hyperbole.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 17:56

deepwatersolo, I am sadly actually completely on board with that. The doomsday clock is absolutely ticking.

TheDowagerCuntess · 01/12/2018 18:09

No it's not, because the needs of 9YO boys to enter women's changing rooms with their mothers does not trump the needs of the actual users (girls and women) of that changing room.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 18:11

What danger does a 9 year old threaten that an 8 year old does not, please?

nellodee · 01/12/2018 18:14

And before anyone says, yes, but you could say that all the way up to 90 years old, of course you could! And this is because age (unlike sex) is absolutely a spectrum. There is nothing special about the age of 8. Its an arbitrary cut off, and one that I happen to believe is about 2 years too early.

So sue me.

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 18:15

For those of you telling me that I need to do this, that or the other with my son and that I clearly don't care about other women - my son is an adult. This isn't about me. Won't affect my life in any way. But I can read about the experiences of others and understand their fears.

CosmicCanary · 01/12/2018 18:15

Its not about a danger they present.
It is about the rights of women and girls to change without the presence of males.

There has to be a cut of age and it appears to be 9 yo.

Weetabixandshreddies · 01/12/2018 18:18

But what danger to privacy in an enclosed cubicle?

And it isn't 9. On this thread alone it is 7 or 8 and on a thread the other day a poster stated, unchallenged, that it should be 6.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 18:19

But the world would not end if it was 10.

EverardDigby · 01/12/2018 18:20

nellodee people have already answered your question further down.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 18:21

Actually, as per deepwatersolo, I should say, the world will end whether or not it is 8 or 10.

nellodee · 01/12/2018 18:22

Sorry, what question did I ask?

Datun · 01/12/2018 18:25

And it isn't 9. On this thread alone it is 7 or 8 and on a thread the other day a poster stated, unchallenged, that it should be 6.

So start a bloody petition to have more family changing rooms in every public facility.

It doesn't mean women and girls have to put up with arbitrary boys coming in their space, based on what their parents think.

Strewth.

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