Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

In the future, people will look back at the idea that TWAW with as much disbelief as we do looking at the tulip mania of the 17th century or the medieval idea that the balance of the four humours in one's body determined one's personality and health

Now you are being unfair.

As a gardening fan, I think the tulip mania was rather cute. Did no harm, for all I know.

Even the belief about the for humours likely didn't make medicine at that time any worse than it already was.It didn't override what people knew from observation.

TWAW already has caused many women to be raped by males who claim to be transwomen. This is what is happening already, and I blame every single genderist for it. EVERY SINGLE ONE who claims TWAW I hold personally responsible for women being raped.

Genderists: You knew that if it was written in law that males, even bepenised males, can be women, then women would be imprisoned with male rapists. You knew that. You knew there is no way for law to prevent it if everyone has to pretend that a male with gender feelz is the exact same as an actual woman.
You campaigned for males to be considered women even if they didn't have surgery to remove their penis.
Male rapists raping women in prison is you reaping what you have sown, and I blame you.
Radical feminists told you it would happen, you did not listen, and you are to blame.

I hope you feel guilty. If you have any conscience left, you totally should.

... you know, actually I just wanted to comment that being obsessed with tulips isn't really all that bad.

I got a bit angry accidentally. No idea why.

You knew that if it was written in law that males, even bepenised males, can be women, then women would be imprisoned with male rapists. You knew that. You knew there is no way for law to prevent it

Why is there no way to prevent a prisoner identified as being a high risk from being housed in the female estate? I've seen on here people saying that category A female prisoners are housed in the male estate so why can't cat A trans women be housed in the male estate?

One wants to be treated how they think women are treated (ie as fairytale princesses).

I honestly don't understand why you think it is ok to make such generalisations about a group of people. Maybe some do act like that, but certainly not all. I know some women who act like spoiled princesses I wouldn't therefore describe all women like it.

Weetabix, why do we have sex segregated prisons at all? What's the rationale for it? If some male bodied people should be in the women's estate then why not just have mixed sex prisons?

Why is there no way to prevent a prisoner identified as being a high risk from being housed in the female estate?

Oh dear god. You can't tell!!

I mean, yes of bloody course convicted rapists and paedophiles should be in the men's, not assaulting women.

But other than that particular blaring klaxon, you can't tell who is a risk.

Women regularly fall in love, marry and start a family with men who murder them.

Ffs.

AssassinatedBeauty

Not the point that I was making.

I am answering the assertion that if trans women are recognised as women within the prison system then nothing can stop them being housed in the female estate.

But that isn't correct is it? Because women can be housed in the male estate if required.

People keep saying that but I would be interested to know how many biological women are being held in the Male estate and for what reasons.

Only once they have done something to make them explicitly dangerous to women, either outside or inside prison. It's a post hoc system. That doesn't seem good enough to me.

But wasn't Karen White known to be dangerous? That's my point really. There was no good reason for that to have happened because provision is already in place for some women to be housed in the male estate.

At the point Karen White was sent to women's prison they were correctly following guidelines. He had not been convicted of any sexual offenses

Of course at that point he was a rapist, he just hadn't been found out yet

only 5% of sexual offenses result in a conviction

there are loads more actual rapists than there are convicted rapists

the best way to keep women safe is to provide genuinely single sex spaces for the small number of situations where they're vulnerable

like when they're in prison

Isn't it incredibly obvious that there will be cases where there is no knowledge of the danger beforehand? It's a question of safeguarding.

Let alone all the other issues that come with having male bodied people in the women's estate that women shouldn't have to deal with.

I would be interested to know how many biological women are being held in the Male estate and for what reasons

zero

There was no good reason for that to have happened because provision is already in place for some women to be housed in the male estate.

Only if they need the highest category of security possible. Women go to the male estate is because there is no such facility in the female estate. There are no women in that facility in the male estate. Even if they were, it would be sex segregated. Whatever White (rape and pedophilia), did it's not sufficiently bad. What does that tell you about what people think of the incarcerated women?

I am answering the assertion that if trans women are recognised as women within the prison system then nothing can stop them being housed in the female estate.

This would only happen when there aren't suitable facilities in the female estate.

Assassinatedbeauty's point is relevant because if you accept that prisons should be segregated you have to explain why. We segregate by sex at all levels.

But wasn't Karen White known to be dangerous?

Why don't just make all prisons mixed sex if we can sort out the 'dangerous' men?

Ireland has self ID. It doesn't extend to prisons.

It really keeps coming back to the same thing - a tiny minority of cultists (akin to the moonies or similar) who think the daft mantra of TWAW is actually true, versus the vast majority of people who correctly realise that human beings come in two sexes, and that one sex is much stronger than, and much more prone to violence (statistically) than the other, so that it is a major abuse of women's human rights to lock them up with be-penised individuals, regardless of how those individuals identify.

I'm comfortable with the polite legal fiction that transwomen are to be treated legally as if they were women in the 90% + of situations where sex doesn't come into it. I'd no more want to see them discriminated against for jobs or housing than I would anyone else whose religious, quasi-religious or political views I didn't share.

But they should not be in spaces and activities where sex matters: women's prisons, homeless shelters, rape crisis centres, women's sports, open plan changing rooms. Campaign for third spaces, campaign for men to be more accepting of gender non-conforming males in their spaces and activities.

How do they risk assess any prisoner though? There must be some women convicted of violent crime in prison. Are they just put in with other women and fingers crossed it's all ok?

Where are the likes of Rosemary West kept?

provision is already in place for some women to be housed in the male estate.

If women can be housed in the male estate safely then transwomen can be housed in the male estate safely.

There is therefore no argument for the inclusion of transwomen in the female estate.

I don't think that trans women (certainly not those who self ID) should be housed in women's prisons.

What I am saying is that provision already exists to house women in the male estate. So it's not ground breaking for the prison service to say even if they recognise trans women as women that they will be housed in a separate area within the male estate, as would happen with natal women if necessary.

LemonJello

Exactly the point I am making

But that would only be possible in the case if known violent/sex offenders. It makes the assumption that they're the only risk to women, when that's not going to be the case. It's a system that puts women at risk and only acts once they've been harmed. And ignores all other issues with male bodied people in women's prisons.

Weetabixandshreddies

There is theoretical provision for high category female prisoners. Higher than Rosemary West. It's not used, because we don't have any women in that category.

I understand what you're saying. But I don't think it would fly, precisely because many aren't deemed a high enough risk.

Martin Ponting wasn't, Jacinta Brooks wasn't.

It's also disgracefully ignoring the women. They don't want to shower with any man much less a criminal man. Even if he hasn't been convicted of rape, for gods sake.

But in order to do that they would have to say that trans women aren’t the same as natal women.
There HAS be a a recognition that trans women have different needs to women.
What is the point in the prison service saying ‘trans women are women’ And then not treating them the same as other women.

We can’t keep lying and saying we think trans women are women when actually we can see the differences, and the difference is that trans women are Male.

This whole ‘but of coooourse obviously we think twaw buuuut’ is actually really dangerous because people are meaning different things when they say it.