Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

They stopped having women in broadmoor - women in the hospital for minor crimes were in with men for major ones

I don't know why the past isn't remembered for the present

Datun

How is it ignoring women if you house trans women in a separate part of the male estate?

There won't be any natal women there.

Do you think we should house all trans women in a separate wing of the Male estate wheet?

How is it ignoring women if you house trans women in a separate part of the male estate?

Sorry, crossed wires. No, you're right it isn't. And that's what should happen.

But in order to do that they would have to say that trans women aren’t the same as natal women.
I don't agree. The answer is that all women are assessed and housed in the place that best suits there situation.

Some women are housed in the male estate if certain conditions apply.

Therefore trans women being housed in the male estate, separated from male prisoners, would be no different to some natal women that might need to be housed in the male estate.

And where is Rosemary West then? She surely is not in with other women prisoners. How many women's deaths was she involved with?

*their not there

And yes Calvinsmam I think trans women should be housed in the male estate but separated from males, or in another prison for them if the male estate isn't suitable.

I think the point Weetabix, is that they're assessed on the crime they committed. But I don't think even a transwoman in for fraud shouldn't be housed in the female estate.

I'd agree if the assessment was that any transwoman would be housed in the male estate because the assessment was that it was inappropriate for them to be housed with female prisoners.

I don't agree. The answer is that all women are assessed and housed in the place that best suits there situation.

And how are you going to explain why you just happen to put all the trans women in a different wing?
If they are women then surely they hold the same statistical threat as other women?
What is it that makes a trans woman statistically more dangerous than an average woman?

Wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact they are Male would it?

For what it’s worth wheet I completely agree with you, I think the third space is the most logical and fairest answer to the whole thing.
But legally I think you’d be on tricky ground to say twaw then advocate a third space.

Considering the prison authorities will not under any circumstances put a transman in the male estate because of basic safety, if a category A women's facility was created, where 'woman' meant 'anyone who wants to be', the males in that facility would outnumber the female prisoners so significantly I doubt the prison authority would be able to put females there at all.

Trans separate prison facilities now needed.

I don't agree. The answer is that all women are assessed and housed in the place that best suits there situation.

The assessment would take longer than most prison sentences.

And where is Rosemary West then? She surely is not in with other women prisoners.

She is. Which shows you that women are never in fact in practice held in the male estate.

Which in turn shows what a nonsense transactivist talking point "both cis and trans women can be held in the male estate" is.

Therefore trans women being housed in the male estate, separated from male prisoners, would be no different to some natal women that might need to be housed in the male estate.

I think you are confusing the reasons for different category prisons and the reasons for housing male and female prisoners separately.

merrymouse

I'm not confusing anything. I understand why natal women might be housed in the male estate. I understand that trans women prisoners aren't necessarily going to be that category prisoner.

My point is that natal women aren't automatically housed in the female estate, solely because they are women - under certain circumstances they may be housed elsewhere.

That would be my argument for trans men and women to be housed separately - that there are circumstances that mean they are housed in certain places. They can be recognised and treated as their preferred gender, called by their preferred names etc but segregated in prison.

Please explain to me though how Rosemary West is no potential threat to the female prisoners that she is with? What were her convictions for?

But women are exactly housed in the women's estate automatically. Each case isn't reviewed, they are women so they are housed in a women's prison, automatically. It's only reviewed and considered if the women is very violent and considered a possible risk, and very few women are ever considered to be that much of a risk.

So trans women either end up in a male prison or in solitary confinement or in a prison hundreds of miles from their family, because there are not enough trans women to create separate areas only for trans women and populate them only with trans women. But hey, who cares, as long as the perceived risk to other women is sorted. Never mind any risk assessment of the risk of that prisoner.

Women often end up many miles from their family due to the small number of women's prisons compared to men. I guess that bothers you just as much as the possibility that this may be the case for trans women?

I think you'd find most people here very happy to support any campaign for better provision for trans women within the male estate, or a third space.

Sexual assault offender decides to identify as a trans women in order transfer to woman's prison in order to assault more women.

But who cares, as long as the right of someone to self id to allow maximum opportunity for assault is maintained.

Neat little circle. One poor TW left all along (somehow HUNDREDS of miles from family vs assault. (How do you figure the hundreds is unique to the trans woman? For all you know, the transfer could be closer.)

The rule that should apply is which does the least harm. You're assuming the harm done to the trans woman outweighs all harm done to all others.

That shows a vast lack of empathy for the victims of what can be a life altering assault.

My point is that natal women aren't automatically housed in the female estate, solely because they are women - under certain circumstances they may be housed elsewhere.

They are almost never housed elsewhere.

Please explain to me though how Rosemary West is no potential threat to the female prisoners that she is with? What were her convictions for?
I have no idea of the ins and outs of her sentence, but she is definitely in a female prison.

You do seem to be confused because you keep talking about risk assessing individual prisoners. The point of sex segregation is to safeguard against abuse by not allowing any men to have access to women and for privacy. If risk assessment were the only issue all prisons would be mixed.

My uncle has a learning disability and is in prison, he is held 100’s of miles from his family because the prison that can care to his needs and is the level of security he is considered to be just happens to be 100’s of miles away.
That’s the prison system works unfortunately, we can’t ensure all prisoners will be kept close to their families.

I think you'd find most people here very happy to support any campaign for better provision for trans women within the male estate, or a third space.

Absolutely. You start the petition, F4, and I’m confident you can count on the support of MN.

You seem to misunderstand what I have said. Third provision would not work.

So campaign for better provision for transwomen within the male estate then. I’m ready and waiting to sign and share your petition.

Why wouldn’t a third provision work?

There are enough prisoners identifying as trans women.