Will society accept transwomen ARE women in future generations?

[interestingdebatetoday]

Today I debated with a young woman I adore. I'm in my 30's, her in her 20's. She attended uni in a very liberal city and has studied psychology. Definitely armed to hold an opinion.

We disagree currently on several of the current topics re trans. I personally hold what's probably the norm on the feminist boards of mumsnet in my views.

It made me wonder though - she claims not to feel women are really impacted, uses unisex bathrooms as a norm, and obviously has been socialised to not find an issue in accepting transwomen as women. Is it possible that actually society will progress in a way that her generation down simply won't have the issues which I feel exist when trying to include transwomen AS women?

Can women be educated/socialised to a place over time where several generations on - we will be the old women with outdated beliefs and the world simply isn't bothered about the things which we were?

It has to go one way or the other really doesn't it? Either a big u turn and the idea that transwomen ARE women becomes laughable and delusional is mainstream and acceptable (as many of us might feel on the boards) OR transwomen ARE women and we were the ones who were wrong

It made me wonder... I was really suprised tbh. 10 years later made a huge difference to whether we felt our rights were under attack...

This issue with that is it is implying that trans women ARENT women.
If don’t put them in a female estate just like any other women then you’re denying them their womanhood.

You can’t say trans women are women and have a third space.

In the future, people will look back at the idea that TWAW with as much disbelief as we do looking at the tulip mania of the 17th century or the medieval idea that the balance of the four humours in one's body determined one's personality and health

What is your argument to tell who is a man and who is a TW?

They’re both men.

One wants to be treated how they think women are treated (ie as fairytale princesses).

Although third space doesn't happen if TWAW, they seemed pretty happy in the big GBT wing and it was in a men's prison

Maybe you have a LGBT only prison? Allowing for transmen/transwomen to not argue they're being discriminated against? It's a mixed sex LGBT prison rather than "men's" or "women's"?

Surely for counselling and medical purposes it makes sense to house transwomen together rather than with women? The prison service is massively underfunded. Having counsellors and doctors flitting around the female estate after transwomen is a waste of resources.

And if Feminist4 is right that female prisoners are inherently violent aren’t they safer with each other than being shivved in the shower by some 8 stone TV licence dodger?

And if Feminist4 is right that female prisoners are inherently violent aren’t they safer with each other than being shivved in the shower by some 8 stone TV licence dodger?

Or small lesbian pensioner who has once said she'd defend herself if attacked by a large transwoman?

Surely for counselling and medical purposes it makes sense to house transwomen together rather than with women?

Absolutely. I think the argument used to be that there are so few of them that this would not be practicable...

Or small lesbian pensioner who has once said she'd defend herself if attacked by a large transwoman?

Oh yes. People like Karen White simply must be protected from this kind of absolute terror.

You can’t say trans women are women and have a third space.

Who made up those rules? Most people don't believe males can be women. A tiny group in law can be treated like a woman in certain circumstances. Biology XY chromosomes, muscles, skeletons, smells, organs are important and trump feeling to the vast majority of people.

But now there are so many of them... it couldn't be that hard to set up one prison that's mixed for LGBT prisoners?

But whilst you would always put TW there as they can't go to men or women prisons

You don't always have to send LGB there if they are better placed elsewhere... only if for their protection it's better

So lesbian prisoners probably mostly still housed in women's prisons

But gay men prisoners probably sent to this one

it's always interesting when someone enters a discussion and posts a wholly inflammatory notion, apparently entirely disingenuously, but designed possibly to garner screenshots.

LemonJello

Absolutely. I think the argument used to be that there are so few of them that this would not be practicable...

And of course, according to data we saw this week on here, the numbers are rising massively (though there appears to be some fluctuation as some identify in and out like the clappers).

Maybe you have a LGBT only prison?

What? I hope you’re not suggesting putting the lesbians in a separate prison?

People sometimes enter a discussion to provoke responses and sometimes this is in order to garner the kinds of screenshots they want to take away.

Who made up those rules?

Well I don’t believe trans women are women, I think they should be held in a third space.

But a third space won’t be enough because they want to be considered women. If you believe trans women are women a third space isn’t an option because it’s still saying trans women aren’t women. If they are women they should be held in a women’s prison. This is where TWAW leads.

But the natal women lesbians wouldn't actually get housed in it would they? Unless they requested to be moved there for their own protection

The "lesbians" who do get placed there would be the ones who identify as women (TW) but are also attracted to women

Sorry am I being accused of starting a discussion to bait you all into giving me screenshots or something???

I hope not or paranoia has gone too far.

I'm a mum and regular user on MN ffs

Well that’s a very convoluted way of doing things just to hide the problem which is Male violence.
Let’s make up there’s also a problem with keeping lesbians in the women’s estate just to not hurt the menz feelings.

I might be wrong but I don’t think that was directed at you interesting

vicky

Indeed. I can almost see the headline in Pink News already.

stillathing

Yep. Beware of those watching and be careful what you write, please.

At least give it some feckin' thought first.

I don't know at least one poster already has decided I started the thread to tell everyone we are on the wrong side of history and not to genuinely wonder as is actually the case based on the debate with my friend if future generations would be brainwashed to the point of actually believing and accepting TWAW and thus losing the concerns we have

And yes it is a convoluted way, just seems more practical than what currently happens

So actually in 2018 women can't meet to talk about their rights without that being hate speech

Women can't comment to other women without getting taken to court about defending themselves

Women can't call themselves women in the dictionary definition without being transphobic

And now women need to watch what they say on mumsnet too but other women will join on the censorship of women?

But wondering if my friends generation down will accept it... is crazy

And women's rights aren't being taken away... do we have any left???

And the point is spectacularly missed...

And of course, according to data we saw this week on here, the numbers are rising massively (though there appears to be some fluctuation as some identify in and out like the clappers).

Indeed. And isnt it about half that are sex offenders?