Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

I'm not sayig it's the job of feminism but I am saying feminism would be more effective if it did.

Sorry, as a feminist I prefer to focus my limited time/resources on helping women. By 'more effective' do you mean 'more palatable to men'? Because that's really not the point. If not, what measure of 'effectiveness' are you using?

If individual feminists want to work on projects focusing on helping men or boys, that's great and I'd be in favour of them. But it's not what feminism as a movement is for. As another poster said, your argument is the same as saying that the dogs' home would be more effective if it also helped cats, dolphins and donkeys, because they need help too. Maybe they do, but that isn't what the dogs' home is for.

Bunbury is curious about whether there's something important happening today that this thread may be intended to distract us from, as she's an awfully distrustful person.

Awild, I didn't post a negative message. I posted a balanced message that was structured "This is wrong, don't do it and here's what you should do." And I didn't laugh and mock you either, I engaged with your point.

PurpleOva - What methods do you think should be used?

Language for a start.

Every time you (well not specifically YOU) take the time out to tell girls that they can be anything they want to be, think why am I not sending this exact same message to boys?

Every time you tweet #ThisGirlCan ask yourself why you aren't tweeting #ThisBoyCan as well.

Don't leave it to the culture and media to talk positively to boys. Get in there with your message too.

I've delivered someone to the station, mucked out two horses and made a ginger cake.

Has the OP given any examples of the negative messages feminism is sending to boys yet so we can have a proper discussion?

WomanOfTime - By 'more effective' do you mean 'more palatable to men'?

I mean that you won't change the whole world by only reaching out to half the world.

men (and boys) are portrayed in all kinds of ways, as both heroes and villains and as everything in between.

Really? I see men/boys portrayed as either heroes or villains. Where is the "everything in between"?

As another poster said, your argument is the same as saying that the dogs' home would be more effective if it also helped cats, dolphins and donkeys, because they need help too. Maybe they do, but that isn't what the dogs' home is for.

But it isn't the same is it? As mothers we have a responsibility to teach equal responsibility, to highlight strengths and weaknesses, to encourage good traits, to raise responsible adults who will positively contribute.

To use your cats rescue home analogy it's like someone having both a cat and a dog but choosing to praise the cat and shower it with love whilst constantly kicking the dog.

WildThoughAppeared

Worth pointing out that most victims of violence in this world are men

Worth pointing out the overwhelming majority of perpetrators of violence are men. If men stopped attacking other men that would largely solve the problem.

Having said that I do have a bit of an issue with NonaGray's last post and her son being some sort of shining white knight rescuing and pulling up her daughter.

I do wonder if the reason why no one has said you can't to your son is because he is adhering to the male stereotypes and were he to stray outside of those things would be very different?

You make some interesting and valid points Weetabix they don’t apply to my son although I’m sure they absolutely apply elsewhere.

DH’s best friend is a SAHD and we know several other SAHDs. So no my DS isn’t being brought up to think that isn’t an absolutely valid life choice.

He’s played with plenty of “girls” toys and plenty of dressing up in dresses without anyone batting an eyelid. He has worn a skirt in public without challenge also. All the men he knows think wearing a skirt in public is fine.

He doesn’t personally have the grace for ballet though he has done other kinds of dance classes. His good friend (male) studies ballet and we regularly go to the theatre to watch the ballet so he doesn’t see dance as a solely female endeavour.

I appreciate that we live in the kind of place which makes these things possible. I appreciate it’s not the norm. As does he.

We’re doing our very best not limit our children within the society we live in.

As for what if he has a break down? What if he’s mugged? I’m not sure I see your point?

Where have I said I’ve told him he’s bullet proof?
Where have I said he isn’t or can’t be vulnerable?
Where have I said I’ve told him he can’t show weakness or emotion?
Where have I said I’ve told him he won’t have to work hard for what he wants?
Where have I said he can’t choose to be anything he wants?

"For the rest, boys need good male role models. They need men to step up and show them how to be decent, strong men. They will not take kindly to women lecturing them on what they should be; they’ll learn best from example.
Too many boys are getting their role models from poor examples."

So we just wait for all the men to spontaneouusly rise up and fix everything of their own accord. That's working well.

I've written a paper about #ThisGirlCan. It's about participation in sports and physical activity, and aimed at adult women rather than girls. I wonder how many men would try out one of the few traditionally female sports, like dance or netball, based on a #ThisBoyCan campaign. Easy mistake to make, though, since adult men don't generally get infantilised by being called boys.

I mean that you won't change the whole world by only reaching out to half the world.

Right. So if only we did more to reach out to men, then those men who do violently oppress women and girls would stop doing it. Feminism hasn't been successful enough because we just don't focus on men enough.

Well, that's me told. I think I'll go off and read some feminist theory now. Maybe Bunbury.

I'm a bit puzzled by the references to Bunbury here. Bunbury is great, and her insights are often important, but she's not really relevant to this thread, IMO. Arguing against people you disagree with is a good way to sharpen your arguments, and can sometimes show different perspectives you haven't thought of.

Lass - The only important violence is that of men on women. All other combinations aren't worth talking about. You agree?

God, women, will you not just accept the fact that everything is your job because men can't possibly be expected to do it themselves? This is a totally positive way to talk to and about men, by the way. Yay empowerment.

*Every time you tweet #ThisGirlCan ask yourself why you aren't tweeting #ThisBoyCan as well.

Don't leave it to the culture and media to talk positively to boys. Get in there with your message too.*

Are you doing these things? All feminist movements (or any movement) begins with one person having the idea and implementing it. If you see something that you think should be done, do it!

Has the OP given any examples of the negative messages feminism is sending to boys yet so we can have a proper discussion?

Here's some

Girls can wear pretty much whatever they want without comment (I'm talking about trousers, skirts, dresses not value judgements based on what they look like)

Boys can't. Very few parents would allow their son to wear a dress or a pink sparkly t shirt just because they wanted to. It certainly would not be seen as usual.

Plenty of girls are encouraged to play what might once have been considered male sports. Even now eyebrows would be raised if a boy wanted to study ballet or play netball for example.

A man saying that he wants to be a SAHP would be viewed as different. I remember speaking to a dad at a playgroup who felt so very isolated because he was the only man their and the mums ignored him. No one treated him as any other new parent simply because he was male.

The way I see it is that girls are encouraged to ignore stereotypical gender roles. That anything is open to them and yet boys are still held to these gender stereotypes and then berated for doing the very thing that they have been brought up to do.

bold fail!

Awild, with specific reference to feminism, male violence towards women is more important than male on male violence, yes.

As I said, what is negative about saying "This is wrong, don't do it, this is right, do this instead?"

PurpleOva - so you are saying if I do it then you will too? Fantastic, we have a movement now. Let's make this happen.

Weetabixabdshreddies- I agree. Are you saying that those messages are being perpetuated by feminists? One of the key tenets of feminism is that people of both sexes should be freed from gender stereotypes!

Yep! I'm all on board with positive messages! :)

I wonder how many men would try out one of the few traditionally female sports, like dance or netball, based on a #ThisBoyCan campaign.

Actually I think they would. If male netball teams were started I think men would join. As it stands though they don't play at school because it's not offered to boys and I've never seen it on offer to men either.

My husband comes to pilates and yoga with me at our gym. Only 2 men are in the class and I've heard some of the women in our class quietly moaning about their presence. Except, it's not a single sex class, it's open to everyone, they haven't shoved their way in. It's just that the women in the class view these activities as " female" so in their minds men shouldn't be there.

FloralBunting - It is by definition negative to tell people what not to do.

It's the difference between "Don't run in the corridor" and "Walk sensibly in the corridor".

The latter is a positive message, the former is a negative one.

I really dislike name calling on either side. One of the patronising words that always comes up in the list of words that MN users hate is 'Menz'. ZenNudist used it in one of the first posts. It is rude, patronising and unhelpful and immediately makes me suspicious of the posters intentions.
Name calling and using words as a put down should not be part of intelligent debate.

AWildThoughAppeared

Lass - The only important violence is that of men on women. All other combinations aren't worth talking about. You agree?

Eh? What on earth are you on about? Male violence against women, children, men and animals is one of the major problems we (meaning all of society) face.

Your comment that most victims of violence in this world are men adds nothing to the debate. We all already know this. Male violence can be stopped by men ceasing to be violent. If they did around 99% of violent acts would cease to happen.

How do you suggest we (meaning all of society) stop this given you seem to think telling boys not to do things is enforcing negative attitudes?