Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

*Then there is bullying heat well face for not being ‘manly’ enough - not being good enough at sports, liking reading, being caring and kind to animals

Oh come on- that really is a bit of an exaggeration.*

You’re entitled to believe that Lass, but I’ve seen it time and time again in schools over the last decade and a half, so I don’t consider it exaggerated!

There is an imbalance because women started fighting for women 100+ years ago with the suffragettes where as the only men that I see who have made positive contributions to mankind is the gay rights activists. Men need to stand up against toxic masculinity but in the while they seem fine about it. My kids are teens and the only positive males I see who are changing things are YouTube stars like
When we imagine a leader of a country, a professor, a general, a sports superstar or an astronaut it is dominantly Male (with a nod to but they could be female) Your son will see no shortage of male empowerment in his life. We will probably have a male prime minister after May and he won't have the clue who the female equivalents of Lewis Hamilton, Ant&Dec, Simon Cowell, Usain Bolt or Christian Ronaldo are.

Men are asked to be allies. If any of you followed the Spanish news on women's protests after the horrible rape case of "La manada" (the wolf pack), you'll have seen that many men were there asking for the same, criticising patriarchy and attacking toxic masculinity. This is very recent and only today resurfaced again because of a similar case. There's a massive protest tomorrow, some of you might want to tune to international news to see men and women together asking for a more balanced society.
Feminism is also concerned with the issues behind male mental issues, many of which area consequence of toxic masculinity.
Feminism also wants fathers to share caring duties with longer paternity leave.

Even now eyebrows would be raised if a boy wanted to study ballet or play netball for example

Not by feminists who actually do not rule the world
Who is actively discouraging this - men and women who aren't feminists

I don't know what netball is but where is this nonsense about boys and ballet coming from?

I go to many, many dance performances, ballet and contemporary. Most , especially if it is a company like the Royal Ballet, the Marinsky, Nederlands Dans, are sold out. There as many men as women in the audience. So who exactly is supposedly pushing the idea boys don't do ballet?.

"Definitely by some feminists yes, how many I have no idea. Some are on here though. Definitely by many women. "
I have never met a feminist who thinks boys and men should be bound by traditional stereotypes. I have met women who do-but never a feminist.

We're here again aren't we? If there's a problem with men, with men's behaviour, with the way men are viewed shouldn't it be men who try to put that right? Why is it always down to us?

Rugby, soccer, cricket, athletics, many other sports. Martial arts in particular.

Business, politics, science.

Which of the above is lacking in positive male role models channeling competition and ambition?

You are quite right. Now where are the male role models showing boys that liking dancing, painting, nursing, being a primary school teacher etc are all equally applicable to boys?

I don't know what netball is but where is this nonsense about boys and ballet coming from?

Netball is sort of similar to basketball but played by girls and women.

Ballet is very much seen as an activity for little girls. Yes, men might well go to watch performances and clearly men become professional dancers but there would be an enormous difference in the number of school age girls vs boys who go to a ballet class. It is never presented to boys as an option in the way that say football would be.

give me some examples of feminist messages to boys that aren't based around telling them what not to do.

The only things I’ve seen feminists tell men not to do are harass, abuse, assault or discriminate. It’s hardly a high bar.

Beyond that, a large part of feminism is encouraging men to be equal parthere and parents, be respectful towards women - again, hardly a high bar.

I don’t understand all the issues around men’s role - feminists don’t want women’s roles either. The point to all is that your sex shouldn’t prevent you from doing anything in particular aside from the obvious limitations.

He doesn’t have to actually fight a fight they all know he’d win.

When I asked my husband why he thought women were oppressed he said 'because they are smaller'.

We're here again aren't we? If there's a problem with men, with men's behaviour, with the way men are viewed shouldn't it be men who try to put that right? Why is it always down to us?

Surely because if you always do as you've always done you'll always get what you've always got?

How will men learn to do it differently if they are never brought up to be different because we are waiting for men to do it differently?

Why don't we as women start that change by raising our sons and daughters differently?

Perhaps it's just me, but given that women are not able to be male role models if I wondered why there were no male role models in a given field I might ask, you know, men.

Silly of me, I know. Bunbury would be so disappointed.

I have never met a feminist who thinks boys and men should be bound by traditional stereotypes

I see that view reflected a lot on this board. Maybe they aren't actually feminists but they are frequent posters praised repeatedly so I've concluded that they are feminists. Maybe the truth is they aren't.

Certainly the poster espousing that 6 year old boys should use the gents toilet alone in order to experience the fear that girls and women experience is a prolific FWR board poster.

Perhaps it's just me, but given that women are not able to be male role models if I wondered why there were no male role models in a given field I might ask, you know, men.

Or I might wonder why they hadn't been brought up with more positive view about men and women so that they could be good male models I might as, you know men and women.

Re.: you are quite right. Now where are the male role models showing boys that liking dancing, painting, nursing, being a primary school teacher etc are all equally applicable to boys?

See: Ballet, Picasso, banksie, computer games designers, Damien hirst, most other notable artists throughout history, strictly come dancing, holby city, casualty, actual nurses and primary school teachers who are men.

Those saying that men are responsible for providing good role models for boys do you also think that dads have no part to play in being good role models for their daughters?

Just trying to read through and wanted to flag this in case it affected anyone

"Don't teach young people that freezing is an appropriate response to aggression."

No-one is teaching young people to "freeze" if someone attacks them.
Freezing is a normal psychological response to threats.
Fight or flight were the first (well known) responses, freeze and faun (terrible name but they needed an "f" word I suppose!) have been added for a long time now.
Freeze speaks for itslef and faun is when the reaction is to try and make super-nice and comply to try and reduce the threat.

Freeze is seen in mammals all the time - and other animals too. "Rabbit in the headlights" is a common phrase for a reason.

I have an example where I was on the wrong end of an armed robbery in the shop I was working. "Freeze" was the reaction of the people (teenagers) working behind the counter. If you don't move maybe the predator will move on. It's a very basic animal reaction. It was to the extent that when the man (sorry OP it was a man with the sawn off doublt barrelled shotgun) asked my colleague a question he literally couldn't speak, he just sort of stared at him dumbly.

No-one teaches this reaction and it is very normal. To say it is taught indicates that it is a choice. In feminism circles, freezing is most often talked about as a reaction to rape. For years and in many countires rape was only rape if the victim fought back. Therefore any adult or child who reacted by freezing was never going to get anywhere.

The idea that this is taught is incorrect > it is one of a range of standard animal responses to threat.

I wanted to write this in case anyone reading was taken aback and maybe reliving some experiences.

Aren’t the positive male role models the media, the newsreaders, the football, the male stars reapected for what they do, not how they look? In this world, men do the cool stuff (space, exploring, running businesses, inventing stuff) - which boys see all day long. Women are - largely - there to be looked at and to do the looking after - which is what boys see all day long. Boys can see plenty of positivity. Less so for girls.

I am at a loss with this one. I'm seeing complaints about the lack of male role models. I'm seeing complaints about boys not being encouraged to do ballet or wear sparkly shirts by society.

I'm failing to understand why these things are so because of feminist messaging, positive or negative.

I don't think that your point, OP, is without merit, and I agree that men need exhortation to be decent as much as girls need exhortation not to be held back.

I just don't agree that the lack of those things in society is something which can be laid at feminism's door.

I did see an ad recently, in Vogue I think. It was a little girl wearing a t-shirt saying 'The future is female.' I did feel a pang when I looked at my DS. I've never seen a 'Boy Power' equivalent.

But that's OK because
Most of the people in responsible jobs that small boys see are men.
Ditto famous sports people.
Ditto politicians.
I could go on.
So there's no need.

Don't you think that it is more meaningful for boys to hear about positive masculinity from other males? I'm a single parent to teens and I'm very conscious of the fact that sometimes the power of what I say would be much more magnified if I was male.

Feminists can't be anti-patriarchy but on the other hand try to tell men what to do. They can point out how the system and men can improve the lives of women but they can't force men to change. Most men don't see the need to change. They may see sexism but don't feel strongly enough to stand up and do something about it.

Or I might wonder why they hadn't been brought up with more positive view about men and women so that they could be good male models I might as, you know men and women.

Male models? Well, I suppose that is a profession that super conservative people might object to a man going into what with the standing around being photographed in one's pants and all, but I can't say that I've ever known a feminist who'd care...

How will men learn to do it differently if they are never brought up to be different because we are waiting for men to do it differently?

I’m a bit confused Weetabix because that’s exactly what I’m trying to do with my son but you don’t seem to approve?

kenandbarbie

Are children exposed to those though? Maybe I'm stereotyping but I'm not sure that many boys see paintings by Picasso in their day to day lives. Same really as programmes like Casualty and Holby City - it's a start but they aren't really aimed at children are they?

What they will be seeing are cartoons, films, children's tv. Are the same role models seen in them? (my children are adults now so I'm very out of touch with kids tv).

Ime boys aren't encouraged particularly to be nurses or primary school teachers and the like. It is changing I guess but now way is it there yet.

No-one teaches this reaction and it is very normal. To say it is taught indicates that it is a choice. In feminism circles, freezing is most often talked about as a reaction to rape. For years and in many countires rape was only rape if the victim fought back. Therefore any adult or child who reacted by freezing was never going to get anywhere.

The idea that this is taught is incorrect > it is one of a range of standard animal responses to threat.

This. Seriously ignorant. It's not something you can control as an "appropriate" response. You can't fucking move.

"Certainly the poster espousing that 6 year old boys should use the gents toilet alone in order to experience the fear that girls and women experience is a prolific FWR board poster."

Blimey-has anyone actually said that?