Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

As a feminist mother of a son (no daughters), I am aware that some things facing him are worse and different from those that face girls. Specifically, the risk of suicide and violence (not sexual). These are directly related to the patriarchal society which says he must be strong and a provider (don’t talk about your feelings) and which consistently glorifies violence. Then there is bullying heat well face for not being ‘manly’ enough - not being good enough at sports, liking reading, being caring and kind to animals. I loved your post, Nona. In the later post you mention alpha men, and I feel like that’s something which is also worse for men. Women have the ‘in’ crowd etc but men are sorted into better and worse (by a patriarchal society). My son could maybe get away with some of his less ‘masculine’ traits if he was also sporty and tall and strong etc - but if he doesn’t have those characteristics he doesn’t get to have the others without being deemed ‘beta’. That’s something my husband had to endure at school especially, and I think he’s just as wonderful as men who have all the traits.

Absolutely all of this seems to me to be connected to the patriarchy. When I raise him with feminist messages, I am definitely caring about him as much as I am about women. I care more about him than I do women in general, on some level. I think that anything done to break down gender roles helps my son just as much as it does women.

The children of the best educated mothers have the best outcomes in terms of their future prospects, independent of their father's qualifications.

Which is a rather wonderful argument for feminism.

Boys have a zillion positive role models. Which is why girls need to be told they can.

Boys know they can grow up to be CEOs it doesn't hurt to suggest that they don't model themselves on Philip Green.

bullying he may well face

It's the difference between "Don't run in the corridor" and "Walk sensibly in the corridor".

The latter is a positive message, the former is a negative one

No actually the former is a clear, concise, unambiguous instruction in relation to safety.

The former is virtually meaningless- how does one "walk sensibly"? Other than avoiding impersonating John Cleese.

Are you saying that those messages are being perpetuated by feminists?

Definitely by some feminists yes, how many I have no idea. Some are on here though. Definitely by many women.

How can we remove gender stereotypes when we continue to perpetuate them whilst saying "well it's up to men to do it"?

How do you suggest we (meaning all of society) stop this given you seem to think telling boys not to do things is enforcing negative attitudes?

By giving boys something noble live for and some pride in themselves would be a start.

Awild, bit the message is not just don't do something, it's a message that says something is harmful, therefore...

Most people, when encouraged towards some action, tend to ask why. As distasteful male violence is, if you don't understand the issue, you won't see the vital necessity of the positive exhortation.

Like, my dad and my husband didn't understand my perspective about walking to the bus stop in the dark, until k explained the negative to them.

Even now eyebrows would be raised if a boy wanted to study ballet or play netball for example. Not by feminists who actually do not rule the world.

Who is actively discouraging this - men and women who aren't feminists.

I haven’t said DS is perfect, or invulnerable or responsible for his sister. I’m not teaching him that either.

The point I was trying to make was that just that he has privilege. A lot of privilege.

Much of which his sister shares.

But it cannot be denied that the fact he is male gives him a head start. It will continue to give him an unfair advantage for his whole life

He has that unfair advantage whether he wants it or not. I’m just trying to raise him to be aware of that advantage and demonstrate how it can be used to help those who don’t share it. Whether that’s women or any other disadvantaged minority.

Much of the power in society is held by middle class white men. So it surely follows that it would benefit society if the next generation of middle class white men appreciated their privilege, recognised the struggles of others and tried to make things better?

Floral - Negative messages are important too. However it's the lack of positive ones I am concerned about.

I agree with you ScipioAfricanus. You make some great points

By giving boys something noble live for and some pride in themselves would be a start.

The irony is that this is exactly what feminism attempts to do for and with girls and women. The overwhelming irony is that the boys and men get this in spades and anyone who suggests otherwise is either being very, very sly indeed (Bunbury postulates that those seeking to centre men within feminism are not and have never been feminists at all, since feminism is by, for and about women) or doesn't live on the same planet, let alone the same society, as the rest of us.

God, how many typos in that last post!

I struggle with the idea that a woman might be " presented with feminism".

Feminism is about, first of all about just being a woman; and living life in a female body/ experiencing life in that female body - with all that entails; also then being related to, treated in certain ways on account of that. The feminism bit is the articulation of that experience, and then the challenging of some of those experiences.

Simple!

Bunbury is familiar with the theory of the red pill, but tends to get a bit skeptical when people claim to have consumed the entire color spectrum of Smarties and somehow (totally coincidentally you understand) ended right back at "women are responsible for men's behavior".

jelly frizz - give me some examples of feminist messages to boys that aren't based around telling them what not to do.

The whole papoose thing - men can be nurturing and caring parents.

In fact the whole push for encouraging men to take parental leave.

Then there is bullying heat well face for not being ‘manly’ enough - not being good enough at sports, liking reading, being caring and kind to animals

Oh come on- that really is a bit of an exaggeration.

I'm finding myself opposing 2 sets of what seem to me extreme examples on here.

These are (1) the OP's boys need to be given something noble live for and some pride in themselves would be a start and her bizarre idea that telling a boy child not to do something bad is reinforcing negativity and (2) Nona's view of her son as some charmed knight whose mission is rescuing women.

Bunbury is familiar with the theory of the red pill, but tends to get a bit skeptical when people claim to have consumed the entire color spectrum of Smarties and somehow (totally coincidentally you understand) ended right back at "women are responsible for men's behavior"

Indeed she does.

I struggle with the idea that a woman might be " presented with feminism".

On a plate like a cake, or with a bow? Or possible on one of those tiered thingies they serve high tea on? Does feminism come with clotted cream and jam? Do we force innocent men to make the tiny sandwiches because misandry?

I do think , in this country, a woman can do whatever she wants with regard to careers. There was a plea from the police force for more female officers on the news two days ago. There is positive discrimination when it comes to many career choices to try and encourage more women to embrace jobs that have been traditionally male. However, there are threads expressing horror at male care workers in nurseries and care homes.
Until most women and men choose to work equally to support the family financially, there will not be pressure on men to take equal responsibility for domestic chores and child care. Once there is equal distribution of responsibilities, it will be much easier for women to rise to the top jobs and spread the message of a more equal society.

I have sons, and so do many, many women. My sons don't feel the way you describe at all. They are intelligent and articulate young men who are capable of observing and critiquing society. It is not necessary to take all social and politically critique so personally. Recognising that there are privileged groups in society, and that you happen to be a member of that group, does not mean that you are personally being bashed.

Rugby, soccer, cricket, athletics, many other sports. Martial arts in particular.

Business, politics, science.

Which of the above is lacking in positive male role models channeling competition and ambition?

Awild, what is not positive about the message "When you see other men oppressing women, challenge and stop them."

Surely the message "Be noble." is inherent in the admonition not to rape etc.?

I had a conversation with a man about this who was himself telling off other men who were complaining that poor men being so confused by #metoo and what it meant for their behaviour.

We both agreed that it was quite simple - there isn't and never has been an assumption that unless you can disregard questions of consent, you are condemned to life as a hermit who never speaks to women. He's quite a decent sort who understands that being a decent man is quite an aspirational and straightforward thing.

I've never read anything feminist that would stop this guy approaching the world the way he does. Because it's exactly what feminists ask for.

Also relevant is, I think, my experience as a teacher. Whenever I directly address sexism, misogyny, the oppression of women in my classes, it is met by some resistance and resentment by some boys (and the very occasional girl). The content I am teaching is male oriented 99% of the time. It’s very interesting to me how a significant proportion of the boys tend to take that for granted and see any interjection or rebalancing as eye-roll-worthy or annoying. The male centredness is seen as ‘correct’ and ‘on the syllabus’. That speaks to me of a huge amount of privilege which can only have come from being raised in a society where being male is seen as the normal and centred thing. The answer to solving that surely isn’t for me to never try slightly to redress the balance in my lessons, in case the boys feel disempowered by my attempts?!