Not sure I am on board with feminism any more.

[AWildThoughAppeared]

When I was first presented with feminism, I was sceptical. Then I saw the light, I was a convert. But recently I don't know what I think any more.

First of all let me say that I'm 100% opn board with women. But I'm deeply concerned about today;s feminism and its message.

This is the message that our young people are being repeatedly schools and media, about women:

A woman is a victim
A woman will be beleived
Femininity is precious
A woman is strong
A woman is empowered
A woman can be anytrhing she wants to be.

So far .... I'm 100% behind that; But lets look at the message our education programs and media messaging is telling to our children about men:

Men are violent
Men are abusers
Men are rapists
Men are not to be trusted
Masculinity is toxic
Men are dispensable
Men should stand aside

What young boy hearing this isn't going to be deeply confused. How are boys going to grow up as strong, responsible, confident and useful if we don't tell them that boys are amazing too.

Is it any wonder so many school age boys are wanting to transition to be girls. Of course they feel like a woman inside when they are constantly told that girls a kind and precious and strong and can do no wrong, and boys are evil, disgusting and worthless.

Where is the celebration of men? Responsible, loving, kind, strong men.

Maybe I'm getting it all wrong. Maybe I'm missing something.Tell me.

WomanOfTime - "I agree that it's important for boys to hear positive messages, but that is in no way the job of feminism"

I'm not sayig it's the job of feminism but I am saying feminism would be more effective if it did.

I find there's a small but extremely vocal number of feminists who are extremely quick to hound anyone with even the smallest fraction of deviation on what constitutes feminist beliefs and values before declaring them either 'not an x feminist' or 'not a feminist' entirely. I believe this is an attempt to, quickly and with minimal effort, force others into assimilating their beliefs because they either have no interest or capacity for discussion.

Reading your messages, it does seem to me that you are a feminist because you recognise that the more misandric view presented by certain feminists (hating men, when they perhaps should be directing their ire against the patriarchy, regardless of sex) are harmful to everyone in the long run. I can understand why they act this way, it's a lot easier to release that anger upon the symptoms than the cause.

If you truly believe that what you do and say benefits society in a way that ultimately leads women to equality then you're a feminist in my books. If you're willing to robustly discuss and debate why you hold those beliefs, to explore and refine both your beliefs and those held by others then you're a great feminist in my books .

Yes but my point is that boys only have to look at a paper, the news, the broad leadership of their countries, every great leader in history, most global heads of business, to BE positive role models for them!

NonaGrey

Has your son really never been told that he couldn't do something because he is a boy?

So if he said he wanted to do ballet would no one comment negatively? Or if he said that once married he wanted to stay at home with the children? But your daughter could say any of those or that she wants to play football and that would be ok.

You also say no one passes comment on what he wears. So again, if he wanted to wear a dress? Yet your daughter can equally wear trousers or a dress without comment.

O do wonder if the reason why no one has said you can't to your son is because he is adhering to the male stereotypes and were he to stray outside of those things would be very different?

Sorry to HAVE lol

If a man or boy interprets "don't beat or rape women and girls" as a personal attack or an attach on men and boys as a whole then that certainly does tell us some interesting things about what's going on in his head.

sackrifice - haven't you heard one One BIllion Rising? That's just one example where a feminist movement paints women as victims and men ad evildoers.

And it is a "negative message" becaus it's telling what not to do (i.e. negation). A positive message is telling what you should actively do. Feminism sends positive messages to girls and negative messages to men.

"Little Susie/Bobby, don't kick the dog, it hurts him and it's not nice."

Gosh, why all the negative messages?

When you still get news like this on almost a weekly basis, feminism is much needed:
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46315969?fbclid=IwAR1DSgG-uR3EkpGi77rnzQApze1CDR7d6CLgf1ZUsVTdoI-C-rkzYI0oX-s

After DD challenged the “Mum’s favourite chore” exercise it was confirmed to me that the school wouldn’t use that format again.

However, we have a higher than average number of traveller families in our school with some very traditional ideas about male and female sex roles which we have to approach in a different way, otherwise it can come across as criticising their culture and lifestyle.

AngryAttackKittens - if you repeat the same things it becomes subconscious.

Just like if women are portrayed only as mothers and housewives. The message comes "all women are only mothers and housewives"/

If men are portrayed as violent abusers .... it becomes "all men are violed abusers"

there needs to be balance.

The only thing feminism is telling men not to do is things that actively hurt or harm women.

Feminism is also telling men what they can do. Feminism is telling men that they can be carers, that they can take up traditionally female roles without being discriminated against for doing so.

I'm really not sure what else you think feminism should be doing.

AngryAttackKittens - negative messages are not the proboem. But I'm talking about a LACK of POSITVE messages. I know it's a subtle point. But I think it is very important. You all joking and laughung at me aren't really listening.

OK, one brief moment of engagement and then I'm back to the pisstaking this thread deserves - men (and boys) are portrayed in all kinds of ways, as both heroes and villains and as everything in between. Anyone who claims that men are mostly or always portrayed as violent abusers either has rather odd media consumption habits or is telling porkies.

Feminism doesn't need to sing the praises of "not all men". Those can be allies and add themselves to the "stop treating women like property".

I was going to post something but can't be bothered other than to second everything AngryAttackKittens said.

My concern, maybe wrong, is that feminism would have boys embrace ONLY the "tradiitonally female" traits and suppress the "traditionally male" ones.

I’m a feminist parent.
Actively feminist in my parenting. To both a son and a daughter.

Re-read my posts. Do I seem to be suppressing male characteristics in my son?

Do I seem to be telling him that men are toxic and he should behave like a woman?

I’m married to a man.
A man I clearly think is wonderful.
A man who parents equally.
A successful, strong, kind alpha male.

I dont want the world to teach boys that men are less I want the world to teach boy that men have they potential to be so much more. That they could do amazing things.

My son has the potential to do anything he wants. Anything.

How wonderful would it be if a tiny part of that “anything” was protecting those less powerful, standing up against injustice and reaching out a hand to pull up his sister so that she could take her place beside him in this world.

Help make her (and her Sisters) equal. Share power, share opportunities, share success, share responsibility, share wealth. Keep them safe.

And the change in behaviour we need to make this shining vision of the future come true is not a change in behaviour from our daughters it’s change in behaviour by our sons.

And our husbands, fathers, brothers.

The message of feminism isn’t about tell boys what they can’t do - it’s about showing boys the power they already have and asking them to use it well.

It’s about making sure our girls are ready to grab the opportunity for equality, on the off chance that it is offered to them and teaching them to fight for their rights in the meantime.

NonaGrey - I'm not saying you are like all feminists. You seem pretty cool.

We only disagree on the methods used to bring the change about.

Nonagray’s posts about her son sum up I think what the OP is saying.

In her eyes her son faces nothing but a positive future. He literally has it all. He's strong, diplomatic, powerful, good looking, looked up to etc etc.

So what happens if one day he can't cope? He has a breakdown? He shows weakness? He gets mugged or attacked when walking home?

Men's lives aren't all charmed and I think we show them a disservice by raising them to think that they are bullet proof, that their future is assured just be virtue of their sex.

Men and women are both vulnerable. Certainly the threats are different and women are more vulnerable in certain circumstances but it is quite bizarre how stark the contrast is in attitudes between males and females that is being displayed here.

You are reinforcing the very stereotypes that you claim to be against.

How do you think feminism or feminists should spread positive messages about men? What methods do you think should be used?

Worth pointing out that most victims of violence in this world are men.

Other examples of feminism supporting men, it's mostly feminists who raise concerns about things like the male suicide rate etc.

OP, is this the sort of role model for boys you're looking for? I have to say, I found this both moving and inspirational:

twitter.com/davidhogg111/status/1048269438875828225

Feminism is limited in what it can do for boys. I think it does what it can in promoting the values it wants to see in boys and men, hence Nona’s son at University standing up for female students. My own son has done similar.

For the rest, boys need good male role models. They need men to step up and show them how to be decent, strong men. They will not take kindly to women lecturing them on what they should be; they’ll learn best from example.
Too many boys are getting their role models from poor examples.