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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

How do SA and rape survivors cope in this climate?

299 replies

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 21/11/2018 12:54

When I gave birth last Feb, the staff wanted a load of people observing me inc men. I always knew I wouldn't cope well with that but when it came to it, he strength of my feeling surprised me. I couldn't go through it.

I was told last week that that same hospital now employs a transwoman ultrasonographer in the EPU who specialises in vaginal US. The person who told me was a local GP, speaking to me in a social context. He said some of his patients had been distressed by it.

It got me thinking - how do you/ would you cope as a survivor faced with that kind of thing? For me, loos aren't so much an issue but healthcare definitely is. But we all have our specific triggers.... what do we do if we cannot avoid them?

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 21/11/2018 22:36

Whilst that must have been upsetting for the woman, the article clearly states the nurse saw her due to a clinical error and not out of standard practice.

EarlyWalker
That is not what the article clearly states. It raises important questions which deserve careful consideration.
It has significant impications for womens health and consent.

Please don't minimise the woman's experience.

This needs considering further.

The nurse who identifies as transwoman was able to be rostered on for a female specific task.

The male nurse did not see any issue in carrying out an intimate examination in this case a smear test without a chaperone.

When the patient expressed that they didn't want a male nurse, the response was to assert that they were not a man. This is completely contrary to patient care.

So obvious issues are, how will the NHS allocate tasks when the sex of the HCP is relevent to patients whilst recogising the employment rights of the HCP. How will records enable this?

What issues will there be when some male HCPs who are trans believe that they are both women and female?

NHS does not seem to have clarity on sex / gender.
This is true of single sex accomodation eg wards, showers etc which is deliberately obfuscating the reality that it refers to gender identity.

These impact the safety, dignity and privacy of women (adult human females)

AngryAttackKittens · 21/11/2018 22:42

Basically you are saying that she has no right to give consent on your behalf but that you have every right to insist that your choices remove hers.

Nobody has the right to give consent on anyone else's behalf. This is pretty bloody basic stuff.

GoldenWonderwall · 21/11/2018 22:45

Ffs no one is going to apologise to you for something someone else wrote several hours ago and that we did not see because it was deleted. You need to get over it - it wasn’t even to you! If that poster feels unsupported because there are not 100s of posts condemning something posters have not seen then that isn’t great but neither is raking over it again and again.

None of us can speak for all women as individuals but whilst there’s ever a woman who is distressed by male hcp doing intimate examinations then we must take her into consideration. If someone wants to request male hcp I don’t see why they can’t do that.

By making this all about one woman you feel wasn’t supported enough, the stories of many women and how they feel have been lost in the bunfight and completely ignored. Perhaps reflect on your own behaviour before nitpicking about everyone else’s.

EarlyWalker · 21/11/2018 22:51

I agree the issues need to be discussed but it does state it was a clinical error:

It is understood the nurse self-identified as a woman but had not been employed on that basis. He saw the patient only because of a clerical error.

I’m not minimising her experience, im stating that the article you linked too is not really relevant to the issue being discussed as her request for a female HCP was not recorded correctly, as opposed to them
Deliberately Sending a transwoman after a female-only request.

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 22:55

Ffs no one is going to apologise to you for something someone else wrote several hours ago and that we did not see because it was deleted.
I don't need nor want anyone to apologise to me but the author of that post is still here.

Secondly, some people here did see it.

It seems pretty fundamental to me that anyone disclosing rape should be believed. The fact that some posters felt able to say they didn't believe her, while others still turned a blind eye to the comments, shocks me.

Original poster
JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 21/11/2018 22:56

Tristesse you could start your own thread? Confused I posted a specific situation about a TW hcp as that had upset me. Anyone else can post any thread they like about their own experiences. I don't see how this one thread is disenfranchising anyone.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 21/11/2018 22:58

EarlyWalker

The NHS Trust as part of its apology to the patient said it was due to a clerical error.

That's the Trust's statement.

Let's not be naive about this.

Original poster
JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 21/11/2018 23:00

Weetabix no I don't think that tw should never do abdo scanning or tvu if necessary and patient is okay with it.

I am saying, taking a job in an EPU specifically where a big chunk of the work is tvu is odd, esp when some patients are apparently distressed by it. And I am wondering what I would do. And reflecting generally on the (for me) triggering nature of a lot of stuff in the news recently around trans stuff and wondering how others.cope.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 21/11/2018 23:01

No Male HCP should take on an intimate examination eg a smear test unaccompanied.

Female patients must be able to request female HCPs for intimate examinations.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/11/2018 23:03

If you believe that statement by the Trust I have some lovely land in what totally is not a floodplain to sell you.

EarlyWalker · 21/11/2018 23:10

Oh I see where this is going to make it fit perfectly for you, the hospital is lying. Now I understand, thanks for the clarification.

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 23:11

No Male HCP should take on an intimate examination eg a smear test unaccompanied.

What surprised me though was that I had a female HCP doing the scan and a male chaperone. He was actually listed on the paperwork as a chaperone.

I didn't think female HCPs needed a chaperone with a female patient. For some reason it bothered me more than if it had been a male HCP with female chaperone. It just seemed a very weird set up.

UpstartCrow · 21/11/2018 23:12

They should ask you once and put it on your medical records.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/11/2018 23:19

That does seem odd, Weetabix. Is their policy maybe that everyone needs a chaperone for that particular procedure?

PositivelyPERF · 21/11/2018 23:21

It pisses me off that we have to even think about giving a reason for requesting an actual female to examine us. We should be able to say we prefer a woman and get one. I don’t count a transwoman as a woman in when it comes to intimate care. I shouldn’t have to think about the abuse I received at the hands of men. That is upsetting enough, without having to give that reason to those that are supposed to have the patient’s best interests at heart. If that upsets a man that wants to be seen as a woman, tough shit.

Ereshkigal · 21/11/2018 23:22

What you just said about being reduced to just flesh and being too frozen is EXACTLY it. I go into these situations now feeling hugely aggressive, like NO this time you will not get to do this to me! It feels like a re-match every time.

Yes, so much this.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/11/2018 23:24

It's the every no from a woman is the beginning of a negotiation assumption that grates, isn't it? Woman requests a female HCP. OK yes but, what if the male person has long hair? No? OK, what if they really feel like they're a woman? Still no? OK, but...and on and bloody on. It never ends.

Ereshkigal · 21/11/2018 23:25

Well yes, this is what irritates me. Every boundary is seen as a fresh frontier to breach.

This is what they see as "activism". And we see them.

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 23:26

AngryAttackKittens

I am guessing that it must be and I suppose it does protect the HCP somewhat.

I don't know why it made it so weird. The only answer I can think is that we are used to having a chaperone with a male HCP and understand why but this combination sort of made me feel that the female HCP posed a risk to me, and I hadn't ever considered that before. I'm never offered a chaperone when I go for a smear for example.

Bizarrely I also wasn't asked if I was ok with a male chaperone. He wasn't doing the scan but he was standing there. I am not bothered by either male or female HCPs but it does seem that consent is automatically presumed in some cases and I don't think it should ever be presumed, no matter who is doing the examination.

Original poster
JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 21/11/2018 23:31

Angry yes that too!

Thinking back to my birth, they wanted male paeds in the room. I said no, they could wait outside. Oh but they are really nice. They don't stare. What about if they are behind a curtain? On and fucking on. That'd be one appointment. Next time, it'd be all, we have to warn you there will be lots of people in the room. What, you've discussed this already? Well Mr X is lovely. What if he stands at the head end?

Arrrrrrghh! A negotiation is exactly what they thought it was. I pulled the plug by fucking off to the loo and locking the door. Still gives me the rage!

OP posts:
Original poster
JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 21/11/2018 23:32

Weetabix I would find that creepy too.

OP posts:
scepticalwoman · 21/11/2018 23:33

My woman GP asked me before my last smear whether I'd like a chaperone. She said that they were having a discussion in the practice about this and she felt she needed to ask. It was great that she asked but I'd have been horrified if she'd brought in a man as a chaperone.

AngryAttackKittens · 21/11/2018 23:34

My feeling is that any time a male is going to be in the room for a procedure like that permission needs to be asked for, and if denied that needs to be accomodated without making a fuss or making the patient feel guilty. It's such a common patient preference that all hospitals, doctor's offices etc should be prepared for it.

This very definitely includes the practice of inviting medical students in to observe procedures as a teaching too, which happens far too often without permission being sought, or with it being sought as an afterthought (so this is fine, right?)

pombear · 21/11/2018 23:34

Can I tl/dr this thread:

Some women: I don't want male-bodied people in female intimate healthcare procedures.

Other people: Yeah but, if, yeah but what if, yeah but....

Women: No

Other people: Yeah but if, yeah but, what about, yeah but...

Women: No

And rinse and repeat.

Why should female people not be able to just say 'no'?

AngryAttackKittens · 21/11/2018 23:38

Yep, Johnny. It's one of those things where once you've seen it you can never unsee it again, and it's everywhere.