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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

How do SA and rape survivors cope in this climate?

299 replies

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 21/11/2018 12:54

When I gave birth last Feb, the staff wanted a load of people observing me inc men. I always knew I wouldn't cope well with that but when it came to it, he strength of my feeling surprised me. I couldn't go through it.

I was told last week that that same hospital now employs a transwoman ultrasonographer in the EPU who specialises in vaginal US. The person who told me was a local GP, speaking to me in a social context. He said some of his patients had been distressed by it.

It got me thinking - how do you/ would you cope as a survivor faced with that kind of thing? For me, loos aren't so much an issue but healthcare definitely is. But we all have our specific triggers.... what do we do if we cannot avoid them?

OP posts:
Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 21:34

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff

I understand that you didn't OP but some other posters did say that they questioned the motives of someone who would choose to specialise in TVU. I was trying to explain that they hadn't chosen to specialise in that but that it was part of a wider skill set.

I am sensing here that the only acceptable jobs for trans women in healthcare are going to be only treating men or in a non patient facing role.

Melanippe · 21/11/2018 21:35

umbongo No I don’t think I will, I’m not good at expressing myself well and often get myself into trouble!

Fair enough. A shame though. Flowers

FloralBunting · 21/11/2018 21:36

It's not about being valid. God I hate that word now. It's about acknowledging that if something doesn't bother you then you aren't going to be the priority when considering a policy that should be focusing on the needs of women who are.

NotUmbongoUnchained · 21/11/2018 21:38

Ok i don’t think I’m going to be able to get across what I want to say.

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 21:41

Personally I think all women undergoing intimate exams should be asked "would you prefer a woman hcp if one is available? It might mean a little extra wait"

Exactly.

And the fact is that women who are not particularly worried about male bodied HCPs

But it's not about women who aren't bothered it's about women who do not want a female, in the same way as some women don't want a male. If you aren't bothered either way then it's not a problem. It's for those who are bothered, one way or another.

Yes. And? You worded it extraordinarily badly

Even if people thought that it was worded badly that could have been said, in a better way. No need at all to say I don't believe it happened to you. That was disgusting.

FloralBunting · 21/11/2018 21:43

Possibly not, NotUmbongo. I'm sure if you're operating against a language barrier then it will be a bit harder.

Frankly I'm at my limit of having to explain why an abuse survivor should be able to object to something, or even have systems in place that protect them from needing to be in this position, and I'm kind of done with the whole thing for now, so I shall leave it for this evening

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 21:43

Ok i don’t think I’m going to be able to get across what I want to say.

I'm sorry that you are experiencing this.

FloralBunting · 21/11/2018 21:45

Weetabix, can you please stop insinuating that I said 'I don't believe you' to NotUmbongo because I didn't and I'm already leaving the thread.

R0wantrees · 21/11/2018 21:46

Can you actually link to any cases where a patient has requested a female HCP and a trans woman has turned up?

See my link:
'NHS trust apologises to woman after ‘nurse with stubble and deep voice’ tried to take smear test'
(extract)
The NHS has apologised to a woman who was left “embarrassed and distressed” after a nurse with stubble and a deep voice was going to carry out her cervical smear test at hospital.

The woman requested a female NHS nurse to perform the intimate procedure but was dismayed when a staff member with “an obviously male appearance” greeted her. When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”

“[It was] weird where somebody says to you: ‘My gender is not male’ and you think: ‘Well, what does that even mean? You are clearly a man’.”

The woman declined to go ahead with the examination – given to women aged 25 to 49 every three years and every five years for women aged 50 to 64 – and complained about her treatment.

She stressed her complaint was not about the nurse’s appearance or gender status. It is understood the nurse self-identified as a woman but had not been employed on that basis.

He saw the patient only because of a clerical error.
status. It is understood the nurse self-identified as a woman but had not been employed on that basis. He saw the patient only because of a clerical error. “[It was] weird where somebody says to you: ‘My gender is not male’ and you think: ‘Well, what does that even mean? You are clearly a man’, the woman told the Sunday Times. “[The nurse] had an obviously male appearance . . . close-cropped hair, a male facial appearance and voice, large number of tattoos and facial stubble.” The patient said it was “bad enough for a fortysomething mother”, but the effect of such an incident on her 17-year-old daughter would have been much worse.

However, under plans being considered by ministers, adults will be able to change their birth certificates at will without a doctor’s diagnosis, while non-binary gender people will be able to record their gender as “X”.
James Caspian, a psychotherapist who specialises in working with transgender people, said self-certification would create many similar situations arising in the future.

“Politicians have not thought through all the implications of allowing self-certification,” he said.

The patient has requested anonymity for herself and the clinic because of fears it or the nurse could be criticised. The appointment for was on September 16 last year in an NHS clinic run by the Central and North West London NHS Foundation Trust. It said: “We apologised to this patient for the recording error and because the staff member accepted they didn’t manage the situation appropriately; the patient needed to feel listened to.

Trust policy is to consider seriously all requests for clinicians of a particular gender.”

inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

& this is the issue. It's sex, not gender that matters to women (adult human females). Its also sex not gender which is the risk factor which informs the standard practice of there being female chaperones with male HCPs during intimate examinations etc.

inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 22:01

FloralBunting

I'm not insinuating that you said you don't believe her. I said that 2 posters did say that. You weren't one of the 2. You and others were on the thread at the time and didn't say that it was wrong to doubt a rape survivor though.

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 22:05

R0wantrees

Thank you. My post crossed with yours citing that originally.

Obviously by everyone's admission things went wrong on that occasion. I'm not minimising the impact on that patient but it is clearly not policy to do this.

FloralBunting · 21/11/2018 22:07

Weetabix, if you don't want to insinuate that I said something, could you not quote me while telling me that saying 'I don't believe you' to a rape survivor is disgusting. I am not responsible for what you think I should have responded to on the thread. You have no place attempting to suggest that I have said the things that were deleted just because I didn't comment on them.

EarlyWalker · 21/11/2018 22:11

R0wantrees
Whilst that must have been upsetting for the woman, the article clearly states the nurse saw her due to a clinical error and not out of standard practice.

GraceTheDisgrace · 21/11/2018 22:11

Johnny I agree too. I'd like to hear the word 'female' spoken out loud though to feel safe. Or even 'natal female' even though I don't use that term myself. Our language has been stolen from us and I don't trust the word 'woman' anymore which feels like a death, tbh.

GraceTheDisgrace · 21/11/2018 22:12

whoops I think I missed some posts and mine makes no sense. I meant I'd like to be asked if I prefer a female HCP!

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 22:12

Weetabix, if you don't want to insinuate that I said something, could you not quote me while telling me that saying 'I don't believe you' to a rape survivor is disgusting. I am not responsible for what you think I should have responded to on the thread. You have no place attempting to suggest that I have said the things that were deleted just because I didn't comment on them
How could I have quoted you as saying something that you didn't say? Where have I done that?

You have no place attempting to suggest that I have said the things that were deleted just because I didn't comment on them.

You have no place attempting to suggest that I have said the things that were deleted just because I didn't comment on them.
And nowhere have I suggested that you have said the things that were deleted just because you didn't comment on them. I have explicitly said that you didn't say them.

What I have said is that anyone who saw the posts but didn't speak out should be ashamed of themselves.

Now maybe you could stop insinuating that I am saying things that I haven't said?

UpstartCrow · 21/11/2018 22:17

People using a phone or other gadget cant read every post on the thread. Its not necessary for every person to call out every post they don't agree with. The entire thread doesn't need to fill up with condemnations of one poster, that's the definition of a pile on.
Your demands would make the board unusable.

FloralBunting · 21/11/2018 22:19

You quoted my posts, and then made comments about how saying 'I don't believe you' is disgusting. Your implication is quite clear that I support those sentiments because you've quoted me directly as part of those posts. I've made it clear I don't support those sentiments. I'm a bit sick and tired of your persistent twisting of my extremely clear statements on the thread, so if you could stop extrapolating stuff out of what I didn't say, that'd be great. Good night.

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff · 21/11/2018 22:20

Weetabix ah okay.

Tbh I do think the hcp in question is off. If they work in an EPU I am sure they do have a wider skillset but they will be doing US on women under 12w pregnant so lots of TVUs. It'll be a substantial part of their workload. So not specialising in the sense of doing that and nothing but, but yes it would be a big chunk of what they do.

No I don't think tw should only treat men or be non patient facing. The hcp in question could work in antenatal and do 20w scans or in pretty much any other branch of ultrasonography.

I do think it odd, I'm afraid. No one goes to an epu for happy reasons. To be wanting to perform tvu on a population of already distressed patients a sizeable minority of whom will have experienced SA.... when you could go into literally any other area of sonography..... yeah it seems off to me.

The hcp career choices aren't really my business but I think the dept should be ensuring women have a way to object easily to seeing this person.

OP posts:
LaTristesseDuera · 21/11/2018 22:22

"I don't know what Tristesse means by taking my OP at face value."

Apologies, to clarify my gut response to "how do SA and rape survivors cope in this climate?"

i.e. my response to the title only, is not well.

Because discussion is focussed purely on issues related to transgenderism and there's very little room to debate how we feel about being victims of rape by men who DON'T identify as women,

So I don't cope well in this climate. I'd love to discuss the review of the Belfast rape trial, but that's not going to happen on this board.

I feel disenfranchised.

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 22:23

I am using a phone and yes it is difficult but I still think that to have a poster to tell another poster, in capital letters for emphasis " I don't believe you were raped" and to have another poster agree then yes it is incumbent on everyone to comment on that. Those posts were left to stand for a long time before they were deleted. Surely in the climate of #metoo it isn't acceptable to suggest that a woman is lying about being raped? And what hope do we have in real life trying to change attitudes around rape and how someone can't be telling the truth if they don't react in the "right" way if we here as women can't do it?

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 22:25

so if you could stop extrapolating stuff out of what I didn't say, that'd be great. Good night.

Likewise. I've just read back my posts and I haven't done that once. I've explicitly said you didn't say it. Not sure how much clearer I could have been. You, on the other hand, are twisting what I've said.

thehorseandhisboy · 21/11/2018 22:26

I think it's vital that women speak up and to each other about this. Part (most?) of the reason that women 'consent' to something they don't want is female socialisation that trains us to put other peoples' feelings before our own.

It's really important that individual women don't feel on their own with this, and really understand that we have the right to establish their own boundaries.

And I agree with the poster earlier who pointed out how in many situations women have the responsibility shifted into them - don't wear revealing clothes, don't walk home alone at night, avoid such and such an area, don't let people you don't know buy you drinks etc etc - yet suddenly we lose our responsibility to look after ourselves in situations when we want and need to.

m0therofdragons · 21/11/2018 22:30

I found male consultants were much more gentle and kind than the women who were rough. I'm not sure I was concerned re sex just qualifications to be honest.

I doubt all rape victims feel the same.

Weetabixandshreddies · 21/11/2018 22:33

JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff

I see what you are saying but I've had a TVU in a general ultrasound clinic when I was referred for abdo pain. I didn't expect to need a TV scan but they couldn't get a clear picture. Weirdly, as I said earlier, the sonographer was female yet the chaperone was male. I did think that was odd and I'm not bothered by male HCP at all. It just made me feel strange that a female would need a chaperone when scanning a female patient and that the chaperone was male.

I think if you are trying to prevent a female patient from ever having a TVU conducted by a man or a trans woman then you have to exclude them from any abdominal USS too because you won't know when they might need to revert to a TVU.

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