How do SA and rape survivors cope in this climate?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

When I gave birth last Feb, the staff wanted a load of people observing me inc men. I always knew I wouldn't cope well with that but when it came to it, he strength of my feeling surprised me. I couldn't go through it.

I was told last week that that same hospital now employs a transwoman ultrasonographer in the EPU who specialises in vaginal US. The person who told me was a local GP, speaking to me in a social context. He said some of his patients had been distressed by it.

It got me thinking - how do you/ would you cope as a survivor faced with that kind of thing? For me, loos aren't so much an issue but healthcare definitely is. But we all have our specific triggers.... what do we do if we cannot avoid them?

Just because some women are ok with it, doesn't mean all women have to be

Of course it doesn't and I would never suggest that it does.

Likewise though your choices are not necessarily those of other women and they too are allowed their choices.

EarlyWalker for you. I think you are womaning perfectly well.

Fucksake, no one is saying that if it doesn't bother you, you shouldn't be allowed to see a male HCP. We are saying that wheeling out a rape survivor who isn't bothered by a male bodied HCP in intimate situations doesn't cancel out the fact that many other rape survivors are, and their boundaries matter. Full stop. This is not a hard concept.

doesn't cancel out the fact that many other rape survivors are, and their boundaries matter.
Where did anyone say it did? I think you’re just looking for a fight really. I said the opposite.
wheeling out a rape survivor
I find this phrase and your attitude appalling tbh.

It isn't difficult to understand, no.

But on the first page a couple of posters said that they didn't believe the poster who said she had been raped 3 times but was ok with a male HCP. They said that no one that had been raped would feel like that.

Early I'm sorry to hear you are a survivor, like so many women here.

Just mulling over your suggestion and potential solution for survivors who, unlike you, do not want a male-bodied person examining them in any circumstance-

You suggest:-
So if you specifically ask for a woman, and they say ‘we have Dr. Smith available and she is a trans woman, would this be ok or would you like to wait for Dr. Chris’ etc..

I think you'll find in the 'new world' it would not be considered appropriate for the clinical team to highlight to the patient that 'Dr Smith' is a 'transwoman' (muh rights) Therefore the female survivor would have no warning that Dr Smith is doing the procedure.

The female's right to informed consent is trumped by 'Dr Smith's' right to not have their sex revealed.

Because, in the new world order, Dr Smith is a woman. (And, according to many trans-rights activitists' definitions, also qualifies as an 'adult human female')

Because,in this whole fucking shitstorm, there seems to be a push to blur the boundaries of what we call 'female', 'male'

Even if the female patient on the table recognises immediately that 'Dr Smith' is not an adult human female like herself.

(Though in the new-world word-game, that means nothing, so our patient can't even describe why she felt uncomfortable with 'Dr Smith'. Because you have removed her agency to describe sex-based difference).

I'm another woman who has been assaulted by a male doctor. I would find a male doctor doing this scan very hard indeed but I would find a transwoman doing it impossible because I wouldn't trust they weren't bringing a fetish into it tbh.

I find this whole trans debate very upsetting at times and this issue is at the heart of it. My friends who are thinking so much about validating transwoman are simultaneously showing they don't care about my experiences. It is profoundly distressing, in all honesty. I can barely tolerate hearing them talk about the issue.

What pombear said along with the fact that you've been told that your HCP is going to be a woman, as requested, and in walks a transwoman.

So, you really only have a couple of options there, you continue with a procedure you didn't consent to because your consent was predicated on the HCP being a female or you refuse and run the risk of having the HCP write your notes up as if you're a complete bastard.

Not worth the risk.

I’d think at the moment if you refused dr Smith you’d get someone else, but you’d get treated like a piece of shit because you’re obviously a fucking bigot.

I doubt someone is forced to be doing vaginal ultrasounds in the epu as it’s the only job going and it’s looked down on by all the other sonographers - as those kind of jobs go it’s probably quite a good one as it’ll be 9-5 mon-fri in a lot of hospitals.

I don’t understand what your saying pombear the only suggestions noted here is to ensure transwoman cannot be seen as a woman at all, that is much more ‘discriminatory’ under this ‘new world order’ than informing a patient that this dr is a transwoman when they request a woman (thus including her as a woman) but giving the patient an option to decline.
My suggestion is just that, a suggestion and I think it would be far more likely to be acceptable on both parts. The petitioning for informed consent is more likely to be listened too and respected than the petitioning to remove a transwomans right to be seen as a woman imo.
But I didn’t expect anyone to agree with me.. Maybe I’ll namechange and try again

Also as a side note, don’t you have the right to request a different doctor without even giving a reason? I know this is the case with police officers but not sure about drs.

This is a difficult one. I've recently had to refuse to be seen by a particular dr, not for any emotional reason, but on the 2 previous occasions I have seen him he's made mistakes. Pals were adamant that it is my right to say that I don't want to be treated by him but it was very difficult to have to say it out loud in a busy out patient department and that is without the added fear of being labelled or a history of abuse.

Is it possible for you to request that your notes are marked as female HCPs only? I would hope that any dr or nurse would see this and treat is sensitively.

EarlyWalker

I agree with your suggestion and yes you are correct - you can refuse to be treated by anyone, without citing a reason. Pals were very clear with me on that point.

Recent case where a TW turned up to perform a smear on a patient who had asked for a woman and got arsey when the woman asked for someone else.

Everyone does cope in their own way.

But we have to protect those who DO mind - and the bestvway to do that is not to go on individual yeses or nos, it’s to have a system that protects the most vulnerable as a built in part of it.

A lot of the TRA narrative is pushing case by case as a concept. Example: Lesbian? No you can’t exclude all men, look at a person as a whole. Transwoman wants Into women’s prison? A board takes it case by case.

But when we design a system like that we design it to fail, because humans are fallible. Everyone makes mistakes. Sometimes innocently, sometimes not. And people will game the system any way they can.

So you design the system to eradicate as much possibility for human error, and for malicious intent, as you can.

So: bad system - a prison board looks at applications and decides which men go in a women’s jail

Good system: men never go in women’s jail.

Only system b totally eradicated the possibility of s male inmate raping a female one.

So to me, the same applies here. Maybe that HCP is a dedicated pro with a passion for gynaecology. Maybe the patient doesn’t mind. But many women will mind and some women will be traumatised by it. And some HCPs will have ulterior motives.

So we need to ask ourselves how do we set this up to have the least possible risk of abuse by HCP and trauma to women?

That’s the question we ask. And to me, case by case relying on women to speak up is not the best way.

I mean you can see this happening
You can also see women esp young women gritting their teeth becasue they dont' feel able to refuse

This is pretty common in women esp young ones > be nice be kidn don't make a fuss put yourself last > so anything which puts the onus on women esp vulnerabel ones to speak up is dodgy IMO

And early none of that invalidates what you say about consent - informed consent really is vital, you’re right there.,

I mean realistically how many women who ask for a woman to do an intimate exam are going to be totally TWAW and cool with it?

If you have the preference for a female you mean cunty not feminine, or female soul, or whatever. I mean it's bloody obvious.

I don’t understand what your saying pombear the only suggestions noted here is to ensure transwoman cannot be seen as a woman at all

Every single campaign by transrights activists currently are to ensure that 'transwomen' are the same as 'women' and therefore need to be treated as the same category as 'women'.

The GRA/self-ID push is to ensure that noone is permitted to refer to the fact that this new 'woman (aka transwoman)' is referred to as anything but a 'woman'.

that is much more ‘discriminatory’ under this ‘new world order’ than informing a patient that this dr is a transwoman when they request a woman (thus including her as a woman) but giving the patient an option to decline.

Trans advocacy groups are pushing that informing a patient that a Dr is a 'transwoman' is unacceptable.

My suggestion is just that, a suggestion and I think it would be far more likely to be acceptable on both parts. The petitioning for informed consent is more likely to be listened too and respected than the petitioning to remove a transwomans right to be seen as a woman imo.

I'm not sure what you define as a 'woman' right now. But I recognise that's a bigger conversation.

You're saying the general public are more likely to be up for permitting women the ability to decline a transwoman doing an internal examination (but transwomen are women) than the general public are upfor recognising a transwoman is a male-bodied person who would like to be seen as a woman?

But I didn’t expect anyone to agree with me.. Maybe I’ll namechange and try again

Why not stay as who you are and try again?

I would refuse treatment. I can't cope with a man down there. I cry silently with a woman and it triggers horrible memories and affects me for days. I go for smear tests and I had a hycosy recently and have had swabs taken before too, I guess I'm saying I've had plenty of experience since being sexually abused that have been 'OK', but it still hasn't cleansed my memory so to speak. I am very scared about being unaware if someone is a trans woman or not, or suspecting and not being certain. Many would say it isn't my business I am sure, but it would feel like deceit and violation to not know who is doing that kind of an exam. People like us usually find trust difficult and feel the need to be in control, it's the cruelest thing to do to take that small element of control we think we have, by choosing to attend medical exams/tests, and burning it by making it impossible to identify who is doing said exam/test.

Fucking hell.

Here I am in 2018.

Contributing to an online conversation about whether women who feel uncomfortable with male-bodied healthcare professionals performing intimate examiniations on them, for whatever reason, should have agency to deny those examinations.

Fucking hell.

So to me, the same applies here. Maybe that HCP is a dedicated pro with a passion for gynaecology. Maybe the patient doesn’t mind. But many women will mind and some women will be traumatised by it. And some HCPs will have ulterior motives.

And then the women who would prefer a male HCP (at least one has posted on here)? How can the system meet their needs? Or are they the ones that have to speak up on a case by case basis?

OrcinusOrca

I wish we had a better emoji than flipping flowers. But here are some flowers.

@MNHQ can we have an 'empathy' emoji? I know, that's asking a lot. Maybe a MNHQ logo with a hug around it?!

I find these discussions really difficult on here. Posters claim to be representing women, to be standing up for the rights of women but what they actually mean is that they are standing up fir women that think like them or agree with them. Any women who don't fit into that category are treated appalingly (see the poster who was told that they didn't believe that she had been raped. Just think about that - feminists telling another woman that they think she is lying about being raped. Surely if you thought it even for a second just report the post. Then the mods can quietly look at it in the background. How does that disbelief make those posters any better than people irl who claim women make these things up?)

You're saying the general public are more likely to be up for permitting women the ability to decline a transwoman doing an internal examination (but transwomen are women) than the general public are upfor recognising a transwoman is a male-bodied person who would like to be seen as a woman?

I’m saying that a woman (or any person actually) has the right to know what she is consenting too. If a male doctor walks in and the female hasn’t requested otherwise and says go ahead then yes no problem what gender this dr is.
If a patient specifically requests a female doctor, I think that the issue is not if the healthcare body or individual regards a transgender woman as a female, it is about the patients rights to know what she is consenting to. And therfore, if a request for a female is made - she should be informed ‘we have x available who is a transwoman is this ok for you?’

I know what some TRA are campaigning for, but I’m saying as a counter campaign, I think the issue of informed concent is key as opposed to a campaign of ‘TWANW’ that is just my opinion though.