How do SA and rape survivors cope in this climate?

[JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff]

When I gave birth last Feb, the staff wanted a load of people observing me inc men. I always knew I wouldn't cope well with that but when it came to it, he strength of my feeling surprised me. I couldn't go through it.

I was told last week that that same hospital now employs a transwoman ultrasonographer in the EPU who specialises in vaginal US. The person who told me was a local GP, speaking to me in a social context. He said some of his patients had been distressed by it.

It got me thinking - how do you/ would you cope as a survivor faced with that kind of thing? For me, loos aren't so much an issue but healthcare definitely is. But we all have our specific triggers.... what do we do if we cannot avoid them?

NotUmbongoUnchained
I believe you too. I can’t believe @MNHQ would delete your post. I reported a personal attack on FWR recently and they refused to delete it but are happy to delete a rape survivor sharing their story because it didn’t fit the agenda on these boards.

GoldenWonderwall
That’s a simplistic view. Transwoman are transwoman, I think they should have the right to be seen as a woman (VIa the GRC criteria) but equally, a woman should also have the right to decline to be treated by her in an intimate setting if they wish.

Either way they need to be informed.

floral As this thread is discussing what rape survivors want, I think any rape survivor is perfectly entitled to their opinion. Their experience is not invalidated because it doesn’t fit the anti-trans agenda. Maybe some rape survivors don’t want to be constantly used as a pawn in your debate? And want their voices heard too? Whatever their reason, you don’t get to decide who has a voice and who doesn’t.

No I don’t think I will, I’m not good at expressing myself well and often get myself into trouble!
I was only trying to help, and offer an alternative method of coping with that sort of trauma. My intention was not to lay any blame on anyone.

I didn't say I didn't believe anyone. So when you are addressing me by quoting my post and then talking about me saying I don't believe rape survivors, you are attributing something to me I didn't say.

I have said that those who survive abuse and are able to move on from specific emotional or psychological consequences, or who never experience those consequences are not the women whose needs are paramount in this issue. That is what I have addressed, and I have been particularly angry at the fact that in the wider debate, the women who have talked about their firm boundary on male bodied HCPs, for any reason at all, but specifically as the consequence of abuse are seen as a problem to solved instead of it just being accepted that policy decisions should put their needs paramount.

It's the wiggling round the collective 'no' that is the most infuriating thing about this.

FloralBunting

Oh I'm sorry floral. I must have missed your post telling the deniers how out of order they were? Oh no wait. That's because you didn't.

I have said that those who survive abuse and are able to move on from specific emotional or psychological consequences, or who never experience those consequences are not the women whose needs are paramount in this issue

Who are you to place value judgements on how well someone has recovered or that they have never suffered these consequences simply because their way of coping isn't your way?

Everyone should have choice because what. 1 person needs is harmful to another. Sorry but I don't see your rights as more important than another woman's. Basically you are saying that she has no right to give consent on your behalf but that you have every right to insist that your choices remove hers.

Whoa, this kicked off!

OP here.

Umbongo I believe you and haven't said I didn't. I did find your choice of the word rational a bit off, but then I think you said English is a second language for you?

Never mind.

In answer to the points about how "specialist" this particular hcp is, I don't know. Based on my own visits to that epu I imagine they carry out a range of scans but are obviously now regularly doing tv ones.

I don't know what Tristesse means by taking my OP at face value.

Like others here, I was abused by a dr. I find it very hard to trust hcp esp male ones. Ime the idea you can "just ask for a woman" is a fairytale anyhow. I have had difficulty before in making this request. It was not respected even when I explained one time. So to throw the whole TW thing in is just an added complication that makes it more stressful.

I do not hate any trans people and wish them well. But I feel very very uncomfortable with the prospect of them doing intimate healthcare and the current climate makes it seem like it would be hard to refuse.

It's just in my head a lot these days and I wanted to know if anyone felt similarly and wanted to talk about it.

What choices am I removing? If someone isn't bothered, they aren't bothered. If someone is, they should not have an additional burden.

materalist great post.

I wouldn't be happy about it but in the example you gave of the EPU scanner, I've been in the desperate position of recurrent miscarriage. In that moment I'd have to know what's happening with my pregnancy so would override my feelings and go ahead. Wouldn't be happy but if the alternative was waiting for someone else, maybe even come back the next day, then I know I couldn't put myself through that additional wait. It's hellish.
Rock and a hard place..

Intimate examinations of women & girls in the UK aren't done by male HCPs without a chaperone. This is standard good practice and for very important reasons.

There's something seriously wrong if in this situation the NHS and the HCPs who are male but identify as women do not understand and respect this.

It was the situation described in December 2017 that made me aware just how serious the consequences of conflicting rights were:
inews.co.uk/news/health/nhs-woman-transgender-nurse-smear-test/

So firstly it wasn't one post, 2 actively calked the poster a liar and then many attacked her for how she said it.

first you disagree with the premise of the post, that anyone could specialise in TVU

And I stand by that. I don't think people do specialise in it. It is 1 part of a range of skills, not a specialist department because it isn't always needed to be done. How do you know beforehand who needs it in order to book them in with the "specialist"? In the main an abdominal ultrasound is attempted because it's recognised that TVU can be distressing. I think there was some exaggeration on the part of the dr in the OP.

Can you actually link to any cases where a patient has requested a female HCP and a trans woman has turned up? Has this happened or are you concerned that it might happen because at the moment we don't have self ID and a trans woman could still be excluded from certain situations so I would be very surprised that it is already happening.

And don't buy the "feminists fight for the majority". When you see someone being attacked like this you should speak out. How many times do I see it being said that men need to sort out the problems caused by men? Well as women we should call out other women when their behaviour is harmful.

What choices am I removing?

If we make it so that male HCPs are automatically excluded so that some women don't have to refuse to be seen them then the choice of women who don't want to be treated by female HCPs is removed isn't it?

For women AS A WHOLE, it is better to implement procedures such that the situation never arises in the first place.

This.

Design the system so that the worst outcomes CANNOT arise. Dont design it so they will arise and be (hopefully, maybe, but maybe not) dealt with

This is very basic stuff. It shouldnt be something we have to fight for. And we need to stop the conversation being about individuals and back to women as a class. Individual cases are just a mechanism for the slow chipping away of rights. As we’ve said countless fines, the answer is NO.

So if you are one of the minority just tough luck then?

What? I'm not even sure what you're talking about now. The OP started a thread about how those of us who are abuse survivors cope in the current climate when it's entirely possible that we may be confronted with a male bodied individual who thinks they are a woman and be expected to either acquiesce or object.

Somehow this has become a bunfight about women who aren't bothered by male bodied HCPs and now you want to be talking about women who don't want a female HCP being forced to have one? I am not following you down what appears to be a NAMALT, 'women do it too' rabbit trail.

The OP started a thread about how those of us who are abuse survivors cope in the current climate when it's entirely possible that we may be confronted with a male bodied individual who thinks they are a woman and be expected to either acquiesce or object.

Which is the exact question I answered.

For me it’s all about the right to choose. A person’s right to choose their gender does not trump my right to be treated by a woman in a scenario where I may feel vulnerable. Personally one of the worst aspects of my experience of abuse was colluding with the abuser with the pretence that nothing untoward was actually happening. I will not colliude with biologically born males that they are biologically born females, it would be too triggering. I have been treated by men in the past, this was my choice. That’s the important word here for me, choice.

What? I'm not even sure what you're talking about now. The OP started a thread about how those of us who are abuse survivors cope in the current climate

And that is exactly what 2 posters did - they shared their experiences and how they are coping.

now you want to be talking about women who don't want a female HCP being forced to have one

Yes because one of the posters explained that due to abuse by a female she preferred male HCP.

Weetabix

I have already said I don't believe the TW sonographer only does TVUs. This convo was a few days ago now. I think the dr I spoke to said something along the lines of, do you know they have a TW doing TVUs at Xx Hospital now? They're working in the epu... a patient of mine was pretty distressed and I hear on the grapevine she's not the only one. I said sth about it being "an odd specialism" for that person to undertake in the circs and the dr rejoined with the comment I already reported about the TW validating their own identity this way.

It was a casual discussion, we didn't comb through their cv.

ChewyLouie

I understand that need for choice. Would you agree with the choice to be treated by a male to be withdrawn so that only female HCPs were available?

Yes. And? You worded it extraordinarily badly which is why so many responses picked you up on your use of rational. And the fact is that women who are not particularly worried about male bodied HCPs are being used as leverage in much the same way women who don't mind males in toilets, or refuges, or any other situation are being used as leverage to dismiss the lack of consent from women who do have a problem with it.

Personally I think all women undergoing intimate exams should be asked "would you prefer a woman hcp if one is available? It might mean a little extra wait". And woman to mean female in this case. Then those who don't care or prefer a man can say no, it's fine and those who do care, don't have the onus of raising it.

Yes, Johnny, I agree.

In didn’t word it that badly. I explained how I cope with it, in the words that I use with myself. If you don’t agree with it that’s your opinion, doesn’t make my experience any less valid than yours.

Neatly sidestepping the bunfight...
The women SA survivors I know would likely freeze, disassociate, have weeks of traumatic flashbacks and self harm, continue their thorough avoidance of seeing doctors.