Genuine question - not goady, I promise, I am GC myself..How do we safeguard boys (generally age 8+) in changing rooms and toilets?

[Icantmakeanomelette]

I have daughters and so I have no experience of safeguarding male children.

I agree that children need safety from predators, disagree with GG stance on safeguarding (my children are no longer in guiding).

So how are little boys protected from male predators in changing rooms and toilets?

I think the implication of some posts has definitely been that, or at least that it's not feminism's problem if boys are unsafe in the loos, it's up to men to sort it out. I strongly disagree. It's a feminist concern if as a mother I'm unable to keep some of my children safe when I am out and about.

"the life long caution etc that girls have to go by with where they go and what they do is some how not good enough for the boys"

This is arrant nonsense. The point is that we don't expose girls to the risk of an all-male adult space. You think it's ok for boys to be put in that dangerous position (and essentially suck it up, by 'being cautious') because women have to be cautious in a variety of entirely different situations?! That's pretty offensive, it's like you are saying small boys need a taste of the fear that adult women will experience.

In any case, we are talking prepubescent children here. I don't know about you, but my girls certainly aren't being taught to be more careful than my boys while they are still children. They all have to have regard for their personal safety. When they come to be out and about independently, then the message needs to be differentiated, but small girls are not at higher risk of harm than boys when accompanied by a parent. Except, of course, if they are a male child in the company of only their mother, and needing the loo. But apparently, that's ok because it's only sometimes, and they can always be out and about with their dads instead . Jesus wept, and people are claiming that this isn't a feminist issue!

Boys grow up to be men, so yes, men are going to be the ones with the expertise on what works best for boys.

Has anyone been saying that it's appropriate to bring tweens/early teens into the women's toilets? I didn't think so but might have missed some posts.

Would be helpful, for those who do agree it is a feminist issue for women's lives to be constrained by the need to care for their dependents, to think about other options.

How could men offer to help in a way that isn't even more worrying?

E.g. occasionally men have noticed me loitering around the entrance as they go in and have helpfully popped back to say "he's over by the sinks". They do not offer to retrieve, just offer info.

What?! We don't need expertise, we need ways of keeping our boys safe when there are no male friends or relatives around! The irony of people arguing on a feminist board that women essentially need to be in the company of a man at all times to ensure that their children remain safe from violence!

Nobody is saying that frog soup.

"even though it's only temporary and for many of you who have husbands partners or older children it's not even all the time in that temporary window."

So what is this, then? Basically if you have a partner or an older child your child stays safe. If not, suck it up, boys, you can just have a taste of 'lifelong caution'. If I've read that wrong, fine, but I don't believe I have.

No one here wants boys to be harmed. But the solution isn't to have boys of 9 and above in women's toilets and changing rooms.

The solution is about assessing the male facilities and only using them when you consider them safe.

I think it was an excellent point made upthread about designing male toilets to allow mothers access to help their sons.

How are you proposing we answer your questions frog soup, now that you’ve declared you don’t need expertise?!

Wtf do you suggest then frog

It took centuries for women to get this far. It's being rolled back at an alarming rate and there are still parts of the world where girls cabt go to school without getting shot at. That's if they aren't drowned at birth.

The only way anythung win change in our lifetime is of men speak up.

Tell then , yes this is our life ..welcome to our world

So how about you stop having a go at people who have the same sodding problem you do and offer up a solution. Other than men being held to account

Isn't part of the reason that this is a feminist issue that toilet considerations are a factor that influences their ability to get out and about with their children but also that it affects their ability to not always be the primary carer.

The safety of the gents toilets can be used as an excuse for men to not do certain tasks. Not wanting to take their daughter out alone, or leaving mum to change all the kids for swimming.

If more fathers took their children out alone, if more fathers were stay at home parents or primary carers, or just took more responsibility then more parents with children would be in the gents making them safer for other children. If there were baby changing units in the gents rather than just the ladies then again more more family friendly uses of the gents but also easier for men to pull their weight and less excuses.

How many times do you see a family out and mum takes all the kids to the ladies and dad goes in alone? Too often.

At least if more families were in the gents you could try to send your DS in when a dad goes in with kids and there would hopefully be safe people around in case of trouble.

But the gents aren't going to get safer until men have a good enough reason for forcing the issue. Maybe taking their kids in there would crystallize the issue for them.

Thays exactly it lexi

An excellent post, Lexi! You win teh intarwebs for today!

Another thing - I do get that there are single mothers out there, but there are a lot who are not and I do get somewhat tired of many making excuses for why their men-folk cannot take their children swimming or clothes shopping or to the toilet.

Ok yes you're quite right Almond, let's just defer to the men for their expertise about how to keep boys safe . Seriously?! I meant we don't need male 'expertise' fgs. They are the problem and if we wait for them to find a solution we'll be waiting a long time.

As for solutions, there have already been a number of sensible mitigations suggested on this thread, but clearly there is no simple straightforward way of fixing things. As for 'having a go', we are having a discussion. I am allowed to disagree with people whose suggested solution is 'let the boys suck it up, we as adult women feel unsafe so why shouldn't they'. If there's anyone having a go, it's the person upthread who reported the OP for being fucking 'goady' to even ask the question about what we as women can do to keep our boys safe, and suggesting that it isn't a feminist issue because it's about boys.

And yes, women's rights are being rolled back. That is a related but separate problem to boys being unsafe in the men's. Sometimes, yes, in some situations that means that a prepubescent boy might need to use the women's loos, if the alternative puts him at immediate risk of harm. You are really suggesting that you want your average 9yo to use the men's loos in a busy central railway station alone because he'd make you feel unsafe?! Clearly around adolescence - 11-12, possibly some 10yos but not all - is the grey area, but just because 6yos sometimes pull girls pants down in the playground does not make your average 9yo a 'threat' to women in the way that a teenage or adult male is.

But there's no way to know which 9 year olds are safe and which aren't.

All the obes who aren't had their parents saying the same things. " he's just a boy"

They don't go from.innocebt 6 year olds to sexual predators overnight.

It's how you teach them..how you raise them. And teaching them they have the right to override boundries like that must be a huge contributor

And nice trivializing of behaviour btw

This is why boys grow up doing this shit to girks

And nice trivializing of behaviour btw

Yes, I've noticed this - boys' behaviour has been minimised and trivialised and girls' objections have been similarly so.

We do need the expertise of people who have been boys on how to keep boys safe.

We do need the expertise of people who have been boys on how to keep boys safe

Beyond this, we simply need them to step up to the plate and do their bit.

frogsoup It's my job as a mother to do what I can to keep my boys safe. However I as a mother cannot fix the problem of male predators in male toilets.

As feminists we are raising the problem of male violence and we discuss what we can do about it but we cannot solve that on our own.

Single sex toilets keeps the predators that prey on women and girls (mostly) out of the toilets.

Mixed sex toilets allows the predators preying on girls and women easy access and only protects those tween and early teen boys who are prepared to have their mother accompany them to the toilet. There are more men who prey on girls and women than men who prey on boys.

As a moral dilemma it's pretty clear to me, it's unacceptable to put a greater number of people at risk to reduce the risk for a smaller number. If it was a measure that had a neutral affect on others that would be different.

I'd be interested frogsoup in what practical measure you think we as feminists should be taking to solve the problem of male violence in men's toilets? I don't know I feel you have sons but the age they refuse to go into the ladies toilets with you is generally at or before the age where most other women feel they should not be there.

Has anyone been saying that it's appropriate to bring tweens/early teens into the women's toilets? I didn't think so but might have missed some posts.

Nope. Not that I can recall.

Whoever accused me of "fucking lying" up thread when I said that some people don't seem to think little boys are in need of the same protection as girls: first off, I'm not sure why the need for spitting rage?
It was a fairly mild observation based on posters implying that small boys are potential peepers and pants pullers and/or girls are always at risk anyway and will be forever so boys need to suck it up.
I find that weird on a parenting thread. Just because you don't nessecarily view little boys as dangerous perverts in training doesn't mean you excuse their bad behaviour or think they are angels .
It also doesn't mean that you think 13 year olds should be in the women's changing rooms.
Lots of people have posted practical and helpful suggestions ( I think the placement of urinals etc is a really interesting one). I don't personally find "send them with a man" useful ( and thousands of lone mothers won't either) but I appreciate that men could be doing more with their kids.
And yes we all know the problem is male violence and it's up to men to solve, but while we wait for the temperature in Hell to drop, there's no harm in pondering how to keep (all) our children safe.

So how are you proposing we keep 13 year old boys safe, Bernard?

I've name changed as a few friends know what happened to my son but I do want to share it here to make it known that this is a real issue and not just a scare mongering issue.

Last year my son, who was 7 at the time was attacked in a men's toilet in a restaurant. We were sitting at a table about 10 feet away from the toilets. I realised he was gone longer than usual so I went to the door and heard him screaming. It was horrible and that noise has stayed with me since. He was in there tying his shoelace by the sinks when a teenage boy age 17 followed him in and dragged him into a cubicle. He was attacked, injured and deeply traumatised by it. He must have been locked in the cubicle with him for about 5 minutes which must have felt like an eternity to him.

Luckily, he's a very loved and has a warm friendly open character and there doesn't appear to be much lasting damage. His sleep was disturbed in the months following, but he sleeps well now. He does have some funny OCD type characteristics which I think may have developed after the incident but we keep an eye on it.

We talk about it openly which I think helps. Us as parents seem to have been more affected than him and I still bring him, age 8 now, into the women's changing room and any public toilets. There is no way he is going to be using the men's on his own for a few more years and if anyone questions it I will tell them what happened.

I don't believe this would have happened in the women's toilets. The boy/almost man in question has mental issues, it turns out, and may have been targeting our son and was watching him from his own table where he was dining with his family. It wasn't an opportunistic attack and not all types of attacks like this will be. Its very easy for someone to hang around a toilet entrance and wait for a lone boy to enter.

I'm not proposing anything that hasn't already been discussed I don't think. Hovering outside station toilets, reminding them places to not go after dark, don't go in park toilets. The usual stuff we say to kids.
I like the idea of a different male toilet design someone mentioned.
Personally right now I'm more worried about online safety but I have drummed in the need to be wary ( I hope).

I’m so sorry Overprotective and glad that your son is doing well. Thanks for sharing your story as this is what many mothers of sons fear in that situation. The fact that mothers of daughters have many other things to fear for their daughters isn’t in any way sidelined by our concerns.

I have learned a lot from this thread - I’m going to hang out much closer to the entrance of the men’s (they can just deal with it) and I will use the thumbs up method mentioned so I know who is in there to start with. My husband generally takes my son swimming and is an equal parent, but he works and I don’t, so in the holidays if I want to take my son anywhere we do need to deal with toilets without a male chaperone. When I was looking after my SN niece this summer it was really nice getting to use the disabled toilet and not having this issue which made me realise how it has had an impact on my planning and days since my son got older.

The design of the toilets is interesting - I’m assuming urinals are near the door as the asssumption is more men are using them to pee so makes sense to have shortest walk there. It reminds me a bit of shops. Menswear is normally on the ground floor as men are assumed to make less effort so they won’t bothet going upstairs. The inconvenience for women of having to go further is not a problem for the retailers as the women will make the extra effort. I don’t see why men who want to pee shouldn’t be inconvenienced a little to enable easier protection of boys. But given that people keep designing toilet cubicles too small properly to fit a sanitary disposal bin in, I don’t have much hope for this. As I said, the push for so called gender neutral toilets seems to have led to more individual secure cubicles with sinks in and this is very helpful for me.