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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Ffs lib dems

186 replies

QuentinWinters · 12/11/2018 18:36

Just opened my inbox to this little gem from the lib dems. I'm going to resign my membership I think.

Ffs lib dems
OP posts:
merrymouse · 13/11/2018 18:45

I don't really recognise the "concerns" of women who oppose trans equality/rights as being legitimate, in the same way that I and the party refuse to recognise the "legitimate concerns" of racists who have an issue with immigration.

Differences between races are just cosmetic. Differences between sexes are substantial and, assuming no massive evolutionary leaps in the near future, here to stay.

I'm very happy to support removal of unnecessary sex segregation and more unisex spaces. It's just it's not possible to have the conversation without being able to define what a woman is.

Recognising the existence of the female sex does not limit anybody's rights.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 18:45

They are free to disagree RedToothBrush, but our policy was written with the influence of our own trans members, and passed by the membership at our conference. Its a democratic process, and the existence of some trans people who disagree with that policy isn't really relevant? Why should their view trump the view of our trans members (who are larger in number) and of the democratic decision of conference?

If you want to get into a debate on the concept of 'democracy', I'm quite happy to oblige.

For one, its not just a vote that counts, but also the circumstance and fairness of a vote that affects whether something can legitimatly be called 'democratic'.

The problem with a lot of party politics across the board is about accessibility of it to all groups. We have something of an issue, where party politics for a number of reasons, are closed to certain groups to get their point across. How can poor single women with young kids get to Brighton to go to the conference for example? Are they particularly under represented in local politics? Does this matter? (Clue: yes it does).

Trans people who knew about the vote were always going to be more motivated to take part in a vote on the subject. There are lots of people who aren't fully aware of the subject as its simply not on their radar. My local LD counsellor didn't believe me when I raised it with him. Democracy relies on people being well informed and consulted on big subjects, rather than putting something off the radar. (He's horrified by the totalitarianism of it btw)

And then there is the culture around political debate and freedom to express an opinion. There were lots of women who have been too intimidated to speak about this publically on twitter in their own name out of fear of being 'outed' and losing their job. Never mind to go to conference and vote on the subject. There have been examples where women have been chucked out (under the guise of a 'democratic vote' which more closely resembles a witch trial) of roles within the party for asking questions that others don't want to discuss.

You know, liberal democracy is about more than a gerrymandered vote in a climate of intimidation which excludes certain groups simply by virtue of their wealth don't you?

Because as a liberal democrat, you are shit hot on how to be inclusive and understanding obstacles to debate. And you understand that democracy is an ongoing process in which a vote is not necessarily the final point in the conversation. You know like the LDs entire Brexit policy follows. You don't get to pick and choose when a vote is democracy 'the end' and when a vote is part of an ongoing conversation of democracy. It would be rather hypocritical if you did take that line, now wouldn't it?

Its funny really. This stuff should be the underpinning principles and concerns of a party that calls itself the liberal democrats. Unfortunately its been highjacked by a bunch of people who care more about a fixed liberal identity where you all have to agree with a policy or 'fuck off'. The paradoxical identity crisis of the party could not demonstrate itself louder.

Care to comment further?

I also note that you still haven't responded as to what trans people who disagree with the policy should do, because they have 'the wrong views' about their own rights and what policy the party has.

Should they 'fuck off' too?

Budgieinaberet · 13/11/2018 18:51

I don't know a single lesbian who wants to engage with a lady penis.
They must all be transphobic or just lesbians

TheFoodtheFadandtheFugly · 13/11/2018 18:53

I got this email too and want to respond - what should I say?

Bittermints · 13/11/2018 18:54

Good to have it stated so clearly that you don't care how many people have gender dysphoria. Neatly sidestepping the fact that there has been an unprecedented increase in numbers and also totally ignoring the fact that coming out as trans is nothing like coming out as gay or lesbian, given the medicalisation involved.

littlbrowndog · 13/11/2018 18:54

Do midwives designate sex now ?
Jeez they got the power

merrymouse · 13/11/2018 18:55

Why should their view trump the view of our trans members (who are larger in number) and of the democratic decision of conference?

It's the age old question - how do you balance voters within the party and voters outside the party.

I have been voting for 30 years and have only ever voted Lib Dem, but I could no more vote for a party that refused to recognise the existence of biological sex than I could vote for a party that thought that God made the Earth 4000 years ago.

littlbrowndog · 13/11/2018 18:56

Food I don’t think there is much to say really apart from the whole email is a pack of bollocks
Then sign off with fuckity bye
Cos otherwise you will just be a transphobe whatever you say

Iggi999 · 13/11/2018 18:59

Wrong, Trans Women are Women, and Trans Women are Adult Human Females
You can’t argue with stupid.

UpstartCrow · 13/11/2018 19:00

So you did no impact assessment, and you didnt ask the women who will be negatively affected. Did you bother to ask the Muslim or Jewish lib dems how self ID affects them?

You don't actually understand self ID, do you? It means a person born as a man states he identifies as a woman, and from that point forwards he has to be treated as if he were a biological woman.
No surgery, no hormones.
Womens rights are toast, because people wont engage their brain, or stop and think.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 13/11/2018 19:02

Or because people just don’t give a fuck

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 19:04

Remind me, why are there no actual lesbians on the LD LGBT executive? Just people who identify as lesbians.

You might want to bare the following definition of homophobia in mind when you consider it:

Homophobia is observable in critical and hostile behavior such as discrimination and violence on the basis of sexual orientations that are non-heterosexual. Recognized types of homophobia include institutionalized homophobia, e.g. religious homophobia and state-sponsored homophobia, and internalized homophobia, experienced by people who have same-sex attractions, regardless of how they identify.

OrangeSnake · 13/11/2018 19:07

Did you bother to ask the Muslim or Jewish lib dems how self ID affects them?

UpstartCrow, I know quite a few Muslim and Jewish libdems and they support self-ID just as much as I do.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 19:07

In other words only homoSEXuals can be lesbians. To suggest otherwise, regardless of how someone identifies, is homophobic by definition.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 19:08

So should trans people who hold the wrong views 'fuck off' too?

Still waiting.

AssassinatedBeauty · 13/11/2018 19:10

Can you just explain to me again how self id doesn't affect women at all? No problems will arise from this policy, if it comes to pass, in your opinion. How do you know this?

merrymouse · 13/11/2018 19:10

You may well have concerns about who you are changing with, and who your mother is sharing a ward with, but those concerns just simply aren't going to change our policy or our minds.

Is this official LibDem policy? Will it be on posters?

OrangeSnake · 13/11/2018 19:11

Remind me, why are there no actual lesbians on the LD LGBT executive?

Well there are non-trans bisexual women, its just a matter of who stands and who gets elected to the executive (I'm not involved in LD LGBT as an organisation/its internal workings so I don't really know about who stood in elections). There are however plenty of lesbians in the party who are total supporters of trans rights. So your point is pretty moot.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 19:13

Name some current LD policies?

There's supporting the people's vote for brexit and there is trans women should have more rights than women.

Anyone got anymore?

That's the state the party has managed to get itself into.

OrangeSnake · 13/11/2018 19:13

Is this official LibDem policy?

Self-ID is libdem policy and has been for many many years,

merrymouse · 13/11/2018 19:14

Should I check with my local Lib Dem candidate? The next council election is May 2019.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 19:15

Orangesnake, why have NO lesbians decided to stand for the LGBT LD executive? Don't you think it odd? Or concerning? Or lacking in diversity?

Budgieinaberet · 13/11/2018 19:16

Ha ha ha ha ha
Go on then, find a Muslim woman who is happy with self Id.
At my local pool the Women's only sessions are very busy.
I think if a woman with a penis turns up it will be game over for women

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 19:17

Any comment on the issues with democracy within the party system or what trans people who disagree should do?

Should anyone who disagrees with an official policy of any kind, just 'fuck off' from the party? Or is it just trans stuff you are not allowed to debate?

You know, just so we know how liberal and democratic the party is. And JUST how diverse the party is?

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 19:19

You know what people make derogatory comments about the LDs being elites and middle class and desperately male and white as a party, doesn't it ever make you stop and think about whether it's a valid criticism?

Cos it is.