Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

[spannablue]

Here: alicenuttallbooks.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/why-i-am-a-trans-inclusive-feminist/

Enjoy!

langcleng thanks for your calm and rational post. I just have a few questions for you. As I’m a bit sick of the uncalled for nastiness that certain posters seem to seem acceptable.
1- Please inform me how I’m throwing trans people to the wolves?
2- where have I ignored undermining of frameworks?
3- where have I said mothers should not be concerned?
4- you say I’m sat here spouting such bollocks, are you usually so dismissive of opinions that differ from yours?
5- you say I should do something else rather than comment here - do you believe that only some woman’s voices have the right to be heard here?

langcleng thanks for your calm and rational post

Sarcasm!!!

I did wonder

What’s the key reason you would not want be in the same toilet as a trans person?

Their being trans isn’t the issue.
If they are Male, I do not want to share a toilet with them.

Am I unreasonable to not want to have men in a space where I’m vulnerable? I don’t think I am.

Why Should I be ok with it?

Bowl how you feel and want you want can never be unreasonable, youre entitled to your feelings and opinions and they’re just as valid as anyone else’s.
Some do not see transwoman as simply men and therefore do not see them being in our spaces the same as woman being forced to share with men. I’m not saying what I think and feel is superior to you either, but I’ve already stated my views so I won’t bother boring you all again with them!

But earlywalker this isn't just my opinion.

The following are facts - backed up by data.

-Men as a class are a danger to women
-transwomen retain male patterns and rates of violence even after transition

• humans cannot change sex
• every aid and development agency in earth presses for single sex sanitary facilities as a means of protecting women.

These are not my opinions. They are facts. Arguing opinion is different. Opinion has two sides (or more) and where things are a matter of opinion they’re subjective.

When one side offers feelings and another offers facts then it’s not an equal debate. It’s not opinion. It’s denial of reality.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m sure this is incorrect. I didn’t want to piss on anyone’s chips but I’ve looked into it :

transwoman retain male patterns and rates of violence even after transition

So I’m not here to tell you transwoman are saints. But this may be useful - assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/567053/prisoner-transgender-statistics-march-april-2016.pdf

So of the 70 inmates who said they were transgender in prison in 2016, 52 reported their gender as Male, 14 as female and 4 did not say. Strange isn’t it that fair play for woman haven’t mentioned this when waving about the statistics

The Swedish study I presume you’re refering to is based on a case study in the period of 1973-1988. The author of the study herself said this:

The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality. The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces.

The study itself, if you click on ‘results’ on the article says this - Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

This is the table within the article which also proves this.- journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885.t002

Unfortunately, false statistics don’t help anyone. And given it’s one that’s often trotted out on here, I’d have thought you’d all looked into it more. Took me 5 mins on google to find this.

Safeguarding works by having single sex spaces.
Anyone who is trying to remove single sex spaces from women is undermining safeguarding.

About the Swedish study;
www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6q3e8v/science_ama_series_im_cecilia_dhejne_a_fellow_of/

In her own words, not filtered by the TRA interviewer, the author of the Swedish study says;

For combined transgender females and males and for the whole period 1973-2003 we saw an increased risk of being dead ( in suicide and cardio vascular diseases) and of being hospitalized for any psychiatric morbidity and for suicide attempts. We saw a positive time trend regarding mortality, suicide attempts and any crime and violent crime. For the last period (1989-2003) the transgender group did not have any elevated risk of being dead or being hospitalized for suicide attempts or committing any crime or violent crime. They had the same risk as the controls. However the elevated risk for being hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity still remained. The elevated risk in the transgender group could be caused of many things which we were unable to control for.

Increased trend in crime and violent crime before 1989 and afterwards the same risk as the controls. The control groups were the birth sex group.

Later in the AMA the TRA asks her what “male pattern of criminality” means. In her response she says:

The number of transwomen who had comited crime durin gthis period was 32, and the number who had comitted violent crime were 14. Most likely some of the 32 transwomen who had comitted a any crime had also comitted a violent crime sop you can not add the numbers. Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men.

The TRA did not ask a follow up question, I suspect realising it was time to stop digging.

As far as I can tell, the senior authors of the paper have not made any further comment on the results or their interpretation.

At the very least, the study shows that further study is warranted. We're often told that "genuine trans" TIMs are no threat to women. If there was a definition of "genuine trans" it is likely to be the participants in this study who have had treatment for dysphoria and undergone legal transition with genital surgery. We are expected to assume "genuine trans" are no threat to women but data can be collected on the criminality rates and patterns of TIMs and I think women are entitled to have that evidence assessed publicly.

That report says that the majority of trans prisoners are housed in prisons according to their gender.

Since there are no transmen in men’s prison how does this accord with 52% of transprisoners identifying as ‘male’?

i'm truly baffled by which part of

how do you tell if someone is 'proper' trans

you don't understand Earlywalker

frankly most transwomen look like adult human males to me. so if it's fine for them to come into women's loos, how do you know which people to challenge? I think you agreed upthread that men as a class pose a threat to women as a class?

Unfortunately, false statistics don’t help anyone. And given it’s one that’s often trotted out on here, I’d have thought you’d all looked into it more. Took me 5 mins on google to find this.

The two cohorts were analysed at the same time. Not one after the other. You are misinterpreting the study. As has every other transactivist

The second cohort included women, who identify as men. That's why you can't deduce anything from that side of the study.

The only part of the study that compared to men with men is the one that showed male pattern criminality.

So of the 70 inmates who said they were transgender in prison in 2016, 52 reported their gender as Male, 14 as female and 4 did not say. Strange isn’t it that fair play for woman haven’t mentioned this when waving about the statistics confused

I've no idea what you mean about this. There are no tranmen in men's prisons.

The prisoners you are talking about all I identify as women.

The Ministry of Justice have confirmed fair play for women's analysis. In fact Fairplay under estimated the figures. Deliberately.

The Independent newspaper have also apologised to Fairplay for women for fox Fisher's claims they were wrong.

Oh dear, as you can see, no one's chips have been pissed on here. Except yours Early.

It really fucking pisses me off that women have to keep reinventing the wheel and stating the obvious.

Transcrime UK. Terfaslur. This never happens.

There is absolutely zero evidence to show that identifying as women gives you female pattern behaviour. And overwhelming evidence to suggest the opposite.

How many transwomen we do we have to show you who are perverts, rapists, murderers, and paedophiles?

Seriously, no one wants to have to do this.

It's like claiming blue eyed men don't commit crime. And we have to dig up every blue eyed man who has. Thereby making blue eyed people look weird.

Transwomen are MEN. You either accept that men commit more violent crimes than women, or you don't.

If you think transwomen are different, you have to explain WHY.

Screenshot attached here datun

Right so we’re now moving the goalposts and saying the study, which you all base your ‘transwoman offend at the same rate as men’ needs to be completely disregarded for any data collected post 1985. Which was when trans people started to receive better mental health provisions.

So you’re basing your findings on a study that observed people transitioning over 30 years ago?

Interested to know what part of putting on lippy and a dress makes men magically become less likely to commit violent crime.
If we can find out what exactly happens here we could make our fortunes!

Sorry, I can't see that early.

If it's the part of the study that shows the date range, my understanding is that the actual analysis was not done in two parts, with the date range being separate. They were mixed up together. With one of the date ranges including women.

I'm not a statistician, but a statistician has analysed it.

I simply don't believe that men with gender dysphoria have female pattern behaviour. Even through my own personal experience, just today, with a TW displaying male pattern behaviour. It's like talking to the most arrogant, sexiest bloke imaginable.

I can probably find more you criminal transactivists, than I can sex offending women in prison.

transwoman offend at the same rate as men’ needs to be completely disregarded for any data collected post 1985.

No, not data collected after. Analysis was done on mixed data.

The second cohort included women

I know that the Swedish study gets a lot of controversy, because, I believe the author has been misinterpreted.

But I would like to know how you have misinterpreted Nic Williams' statistics. Because, to me, they are irrefutable.

They are also replicated by a Californian study into transwomen in prison.

Plus Transcrime Uk and This Never Happens.

It's difficult to believe how people can remain in denial over this.

A couple more bits from the link posted by UpstartCrow

Regarding criminality there are only results from either both trans women and trans men and displayed for the whole period 1973-2003 and for the periods of 1973-1988 and the 1989-2003. If one is only intrested in transwomen data is only available for the whole period. For only assigned med who had transition 1973-2003 they had committed more crimes than cis women and more violent crime than cis women.

So over the whole period, 1973-2003, transwomen committed more crimes and more violent crimes than women. They did not separate the data into transwomen and transmen for the two sub-periods of 1973-1988 and 1989-2003.

So after 1989 the transgender men and women together did not differ from cis gender men and women regarding comitting any crime or violent crime. This means that the trana population was not more criminal then the cis population after 1989.

After 1989, the cohort of transwomen and transmen were no different in terms of criminal activity than a control group of men and women.

And given it’s one that’s often trotted out on here, I’d have thought you’d all looked into it more.

We have, here is one thread where it was discussed.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3186729-Does-it-worry-you-that-six-WOMEN-are-convicted-of-rape

My point was not homophobic, responding with ‘you could say that about lesbians if you want to use that arguement’ type statement in response to thinking transwoman are interested in your body.
Well, I personally don't think transexual women would be particularly interested in my body.

I think the current political climate means that predatory men who are interested in anything to do with womens private habits will find it easier to access women by saying they are trans. They might want to ogle me. Or they might want to wank while listening to me piss. Or they might want to plant a camera. Or they might just get off on making women uncomfortable. Who knows, but why on earth are we making it easier for them?

I don’t agree with twisting any statistic or fact to fit your narrative. The author has said themselves to not use the study to back this whole claim of ‘transwoman commit at the same rate as men’ and says her study has been misinterpreted repeatadly to support this.

How do you know if someone is proper trans
I believe you should be able to ask for a GRC, if not then you’ve just got to rely on the law doing it’s job. How do you know your train driver isn’t drunk? That your doctor isn’t a pedophile? That your child’s teacher isn’t grooming them? You just don’t. But if guidelines state that someone holding a GRC can use the facilities of their desired sex, then I support that. There is no real way of policing it. If you’re uncomfortable, question them, if you can’t do that - report them. I don’t think it’s a regular occurrence in RL anyway.

what is a genuine trans

Someone who has lived as their desired sex for more than 2 years, has been diagnosed as having gender dysphoria and intends to live as that sex for the rest of their lives.

What makes them less dangerous

Personally I don’t think anything can just make someone ‘less dangerous’ as such, it’s the nature vs nurture. You’re either born bad or something’s happened to you to make you bad. Testostorone increases muscle mass and aggression, thus explaining partly why men account for the majority of crimes and are the more dangerous sex as a class. Even woman in prison are documented as having higher levels of testosterone than the average woman.
Once someone is on hormone therapy Their levels of testosterone drop to less than half that of a man. Still more than the average woman, but far less than a man.
Testostorone doesn’t account for everything, as I say, some people are bad and some are not.

The author has said themselves to not use the study to back this whole claim of ‘transwoman commit at the same rate as men’

I'm pretty certain she said she couldn't specify what crime, because she didn't categorise the different crimes. Just used the overall term 'crime'.

Testostorone doesn’t account for everything,

And has got absolutely nothing to do with the criteria needed to get a GRC? Which is how you want to categorise people.

I think the onus is on those who want things to change to provide proof that this will not be to women's detriment.
This has not been done.
Single sex spaces were created for a reason. You have not shown that this reason no longer exists.
The testosterone argument is not conclusive and, anyway, falls down with self-id.