Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

[spannablue]

Here: alicenuttallbooks.wordpress.com/2018/11/04/why-i-am-a-trans-inclusive-feminist/

Enjoy!

I provided facts, statistics, study’s to back up my point. They were largely ignored because the didn’t fit the narrative.

That pisses me off. I went to quite a bit of effort to explain to you in some detail, in a reasonably accessible way, why your study is not evidence of anything, was written misleadingly and reported entirely inaccurately.

Meanwhile, you have completely ignored the other evidence that was referred to here -the Target study, the Times FOIA request on unisex changing rooms, and the Swedish study. Stop projecting.

It not only misses the point, it utterly disregards the woman. Ignores her. Writes her out of the scenario altogether.

This. So much this. It's all about the male. The woman's feelings about being put in a humiliating situation and having her boundaries violated: irrelevant. That is NOT feminism.

It not only misses the point, it utterly disregards the woman. Ignores her. Writes her out of the scenario altogether.

So much this. It's all about the male. The woman's feelings about being put in a humiliating situation and having her boundaries violated: irrelevant. That is NOT feminism.

This ^

The majority of people would be happy with what I would be happy with and have explained. Just not the MN echo chamber.

I agree with you on some points, specifically that self ID is a bad thing. However it’s very difficult to take your arguments seriously when you brush off any thing related to self ID as just relating to a few extemists.

This topic is a current issue because self ID has been adopted as policy by so many significant organisations - political parties, local authorities. I remember MN in the mid 2000’s. This wasn’t being discussed.

It’s as though it is easier to pretend the ‘Mumsnet echo chamber’ is over reacting than grapple with the issues.

I’m saying the TRAs shouting for it are extremists. The organisations implementing it without it being law have either been coherced into believing its law (in which case they need to be informed) or are so scared of being un-PC that they’ve taken those steps. Has anyone sat down with these organisations and explained to them why self ID is dangerous? If their only advisors are TRA (which I see as extremists) then it’s no wonder.

The study does not prove nothing at all. It is hard to read every post in detail though when you’re being hounded by tons of posters and trying to keep up. I don’t agree with saying something then disappearing when it gets tough to answer so I didn’t want to flounce when people continued.

This. So much this. It's all about the male. The woman's feelings about being put in a humiliating situation and having her boundaries violated: irrelevant. That is NOT feminism.

That is only true if you see the person as solely a male/female or a transwoman/man. Many feminists agree with the later (in regards to transgender people not the stonewall type - which is current legislation legally, though I understand not always implemented ) just because the feminists here (which is known as the GC part of the internet so obviously bias in that respect) does not mean you speak for all feminists.

That is only true if you see the person as solely a male/female or a transwoman/man.

No it isn't. You literally could not care less about the female people involved and their feelings.

The organisations implementing it have been informed, calmly and repeatedly that they are getting it wrong. Sadly however, those organisations come back saying that they have taken advice from trans organisations such as Mermaids, Gendered Intelligence, GIRES, Allsorts and so on. Every single trans advisory organisation gives the same, incorrect, advice and are the only people being listened to.

I’m saying the TRAs shouting for it are extremists. The organisations implementing it without it being law have either been coherced into believing its law (in which case they need to be informed) or are so scared of being un-PC that they’ve taken those steps. Has anyone sat down with these organisations and explained to them why self ID is dangerous? If their only advisors are TRA (which I see as extremists) then it’s no wonder.

Oh Early, you can't be serious. Where have you been.

I don't think I've got time to list them all. Let's start with every local council changing their inclusion policy by removing the word sex and putting in the word gender. And heaps and heaps of feminists all having to email them, each one, painstakingly to get them to take it out again because they're breaking the law.

Or the huge and ongoing discussion with the girl guides. Where they claimed they would be breaking the law if I didn't allow a 14 year old boy to share a tent with a 10-year-old girl and not tell the parents. Where at the same time as promoting a badge telling guides to 'speak up', the girl guide leaders who did, were fired. And it's no coincidence that the CEO of the girl guides best friends with the director of Stonewall.

Nor that girl guides are advised by an activist who spent their life campaigning for extreme porn to be legalised whilst lowering the age of participants, and another one who employed a subsequently convicted rapist and child torturer.

Or the NSPCC. Who refused to explain how their safeguarding advice which says you must separate opposite sex children, including siblings, over the age of eight, disappears if one of those identifies as trans. Simply refused to address it.

They were supposed to have a web chat on here, but because the questions were largely about this issue, they cancelled.

Yes these TRAs are extremists. And yes what they're getting implemented is bloody extreme. What on earth do you think we have been talking about?

At the moment every fucker is in the disabled bog leaving just transwomen in the ladies

Enough with 'well womyn can go in the disabled' for pities sake

The study does not prove nothing at all. It is hard to read every post in detail though

Early, I hope you answer Datun. This is another minor example of the same thing. "Nothing at all" is literally what that study proves. .

If you don't have time to actually listen to and understand what other people are saying, that's ok. But in that case drop that part of the argument. Repeating yourself like a parrot instead of engaging and understanding the points other people are making is very frustrating for people who are talking to you in good faith.

And just to reiterate: the research you pointed to was NOT ignored and the research everyone else pointed to was ignored by you, and you had the cheek to complain about the opposite being true. That's also frustrating.

That is only true if you see the person as solely a male/female or a transwoman/man. Many feminists agree with the later (in regards to transgender people not the stonewall type - which is current legislation legally, though I understand not always implemented ) just because the feminists here (which is known as the GC part of the internet so obviously bias in that respect) does not mean you speak for all feminists.

It's pretty much the central tenet of feminism that it centres women. If it doesn't do that then it's not feminism - that's not just here, that's been the case since the inception of the whole thing.

I wish i could edit - the first line above was a quote from Early - sorry to be confusing.

That is only true if you see the person as solely a male/female or a transwoman/man. Many feminists agree with the later

Yes feminism centres females. That's the point of it. I struggle to understand how you can be a feminist, whilst accepting that a woman can be a stereotype. It's a conflict that can't be resolved.

I have no difficulty in accepting that women can be compassionate towards men with gender dysphoria. And want to help them alleviate the symptoms, and examine the possibility of acceptance into female spaces.

I get that. But believing they are female, no. Centring them over women, no.

This is an ideology which simply doesn't work within the feminist framework.

And then there is the material issue of spaces, which might work in theory, but one quick glance at what is actually happening, shows it doesn't work in practice.

That's it Datun, promoting a view of woman as a stereotype is not in any way feminist. And that doesn't mean feminists can't be allies to transwomen - in fact, for most of my life that was the case - but being an ally and helping them to fight for their own spaces and provisions is a world away from insisting they are actual biological women and the old-fashioned cunty women should shut up and put up .

Has anyone sat down with these organisations and explained to them why self ID is dangerous?

Do you think that multiple letters haven’t been written? Do you think that people haven’t had meetings with their local MPs? Are you not aware of how difficult it is to organise meetings to discuss this issue? To get MPs to attend?

If any argument against self ID is transphobic, all those who argue against self ID are transphobes and can be ignored whether that is Jenni Murray, Miranda Yardley, Helen Lewis or WPUK.

That is only true if you see the person as solely a male/female or a transwoman/man.

I see people as people.

Sex is only relevant when sex is relevant.

This is an ideology which simply doesn't work within the feminist framework

See also Age Concern campaigning against discrimination against old people. Yet somehow nobody thinks they are excluding babies.

Or Save the Whales: "What about the fucking rabbits?"

But nobody does that, because it's only women who're expected to put ourselves last. Apparently being physically capable of giving birth means that you're the whole bloody universe's mum forever.

Fucking rabbits

Heh heh heh

Has anyone sat down with these organisations and explained to them why self ID is dangerous?

Early, you need to put aside a couple of days and actually read all the threads on here which offer a fairly comprehensive catalogue of women and women's groups trying to have dialogue with political parties, councils, organisations - and being absolutely refused, shut down and called "bigots", "transphobes" and the like for having the temerity ro want to discuss the impact on women.

They've even got a nice hashtag for it: NoDebate.

Has anyone sat down with these organisations and explained to them why self ID is dangerous?

Jesus. Half of FWR threads are the documentation of trying to communicate with these orgs!

I’ve had some absolute crackers from Girl Guides who could not even explain to me why girls and boys are segregated at all. This is the same Girl Guides who have done fantastic surveys of girls and uncovered exponential rates of sexual harassment in schools. But they are unable to say why girls and boys should perhaps not sleep in the same tents, or why they include males on their risk assessments.

My point was exactly what you’ve just said QuentinWinters that just because they are a transwoman does not mean they are ogling you. It was in response to another comment in the thread.
Yes well you didn't need to make a point about lesbians to illustrate that. That's why you were homophobic.