Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Some time ago, I was on a coach trip with my (then) gardening club to visit a number of gardens.

The coach driver was 85 mins late picking us up.

He got lost. Because of these mistakes we missed our appointment slot for our first visit (and lost our pre-paid admission money).

We visited our second garden. On the way to the third, he got lost again and we missed our slot.

The organisers found us somewhere else to go. The driver acted lack he was being heroic taking us somewhere that hadn't been on the schedule. The well-known garden writer was less than hospitable and despite us being a large coach party we had to pay the full individual admission charge each with no discounts for the older members etc.

Despite all of the above - the other women took up a collection for the driver. I not only refused but stated that I didn't understand why there were no plans to complain to the company and obtain a refund and mention how much we'd all lost in admission fees and extra money we'd had to pay out.

I, of course, was being unkind and not nice. You can work out for yourselves why I was no longer welcome at that gardening club.

I’d love to know who the well known garden writer was.

I’d love to know who the well known garden writer was.

Somebody sufficiently upper-class/titled that she obviously never worried about the need to be kind or courteous but actively enjoyed being unpleasant and discourteous.

One comment overheard by several of our members was when she welcomed someone whom she obviously knew, and who congratulated her on how the garden was looking: "Oh it was. Until those dreadful people from the bus arrived. So common"...

Actually, given that I was pretty much the only person in the club who didn't have a several acre garden and open for the NGS, that remark did have its entertaining side.

I’m sorry but thats not a big enough hint . Is she a writer or a designer ?

Please tell me otherwise I will have no distraction from housework. I can hear Beryl luring me like a siren.

Arranfan that's shocking! I wonder if it would have been the same response if the coach driver had been female? (Hypothetically of course as the imaginary woman driver would have checked the map.)

Al1ce I wouldn't contribute.

I was very, very nervous about saying 'no' when an envelope came round for leaving collection at work for someone who was pretty unpleasant to everyone, so I steeled myself and said I wasn't contributing.
Was asked why and said "I'm not really going to miss her and I don't want to be a hypocrite." After a momentary pause, collector said 'Fair enough' and moved on.

That was that. The sky didn't fall in. The first 'no' is the hardest. After practice it does get easier.

The first 'no' is the hardest

Cat Stevens needs updating for Beryl

Virginia Woolf had something to say on Beryl, with 'killing the Angel in the House'.

For me, I have mostly subdued Beryl. The one place I cannot manage to stand up for myself is when other people treat me as a counsellor. They think I am a good person to dump their emotional woes on - especially my male peers at the office where I'm in a male-domainted field. I cannot seem to stop them even though I'm objectively bad at dealing with emotions (mine and other people's).

Ali1cedowntherabbithole What conclusion did you come to about the collection?

Timely question Weezol I had decided not to contribute, but the group chair has now bought something herself, and sent a message asking if anyone would like to chip in. I’m guessing she wasn’t overwhelmed with willing donors

So now my conscience feels I should give the chair a contribution so that she doesn’t shoulder all of the cost, whilst my consciousnes is up in arms because I don’t think I shouldn’t be guilted in to giving money.

I will chip in on this occasion. My lesson to myself for the future is to be clearer in communicating my intentions. Then I needn’t be bounced into doing something that’s not my choice.

So now my conscience feels I should give the chair a contribution so that she doesn’t shoulder all of the cost, whilst my consciousnes is up in arms because I don’t think I shouldn’t be guilted in to giving money.

I'm conflicted about this. On the one hand I absolutely understand that you're doing this to help out the chair, rather than the person who is leaving.

On the other, I feel the chair shouldn't be pushing you all into this when the paucity of the collection should have been a substantial clue stick that something is amiss.

On the other, I feel the chair shouldn't be pushing you all into this when the paucity of the collection should have been a substantial clue stick that something is amiss.

Definitely this!

I suppose I feel I should have made my decision sooner and communicated it clearly though, which is a good lesson. If a similar situation were to happen again, I would speak up to avoid any ambiguity.

The chair has taken it upon herself to bbuy something - her choice. You're being Beryled by proxy.

As before, I wouldn't be chipping in. There has to be a cut off point or you'll never say no to anything.

I’m inclined to agree Weezol. Totally Berylled. Berylled into doing the right thing through guilt.

Which is why I’m going to roll with it this time -as I should have spoken up earlier - but I have learned a good lesson.

This thread is an interesting example of what looks like an attempt to coerce kindness, followed by accusations of selfishness because the OP refuses to do something, for free, that would swallow up all of her time in retirement (provide free childcare for a god daughter):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3433910-Am-I-being-selfish-not-to-want-to-do-childcare-in-retirement?pg=1

I've been wondering how much Beryl and her sisters are tangled up with the phenomenon of preference falsification.

According to the theory, when articulating preferences, individuals frequently tailor their choices to what appears socially acceptable. In other words, they convey preferences that differ from what they genuinely want. Kuran calls the resulting misrepresentation "preference falsification". In his 1995 book, Private Truths, Public Lies, he argues that the phenomenon is ubiquitous and that it has huge social and political consequences. These consequences all hinge on interdependencies between individual decisions as to what preference to convey publicly. A person who hides his discontent about a fashion, policy, or political regime makes it harder for others to express discontent.

One socially significant consequence of preference falsification is widespread public support for social options that would be rejected decisively in a vote taken by secret ballot. Privately unpopular policies may be retained indefinitely as people reproduce conformist social pressures through individual acts of preference falsification.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_falsification

Private Truths, Public Lies: The Social Consequences of Preference Falsification
www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674707580

I can feel a part of me shrink/recoil when I am to-the-point and unapologetic. And I do it anyway. I think we have to go through the initial inner discomfort of dispensing with "nice"; it's a rite of passage. It gets better each time, until being straightforward becomes second nature.

I had a meeting last week and all I could think about was Beryl.

Done really well, I was told HAVE to do something I questioned ‘have’ which they then backtracked to, ‘could’ I do it but no consequences if I don’t. Was few other things in that meeting that they back tracked on they got bit flustered.

Left that meeting and kicked myself because I apologised for questioning and didn’t mean to come across as being awkward, even though, as always am polite throughout.

Ffs I nearly done it!

I’m adopting Beryl as meaning for nice until further notice.

I've been seriously trying to put beryl in the corner today.

Dh is TERRIBLE at walking away from a mess or half doing something. And yet will totally do it in front of parents or my parents or friends.

So Ive been purposefully avoiding clearing up messes he's made with ds2 (weaning) - so the porridge turned to concrete and he had to spend ages chipping at it before baby could have lunch. And a few other tiny things here and there. I have no qualms with team work etc except that dh will drop the small ball he carries regularly and is incredibly inconsistent which of course impacts me as I have to fill the gaps. Nope, no more, as long as the kids aren't affected.

Of course there's times I don't manage to clear up immediately and I'd happily do it if he's done a meal except I know dh too well now. I'm just allowing a few natural consequences.

I'm saying no a lot more too. He has his great points too; to his credit is remembering to do ds's reading far more than me, and I'm a teacher... though I usually have to fill the book in

Place marking.

I think people don't appreciate how much their 'self-reliance' and 'self-worth' are enabled by the benefit of someone else's Beryl.

If all women took that stance the human race would die out. Some women need do the labour of motherhood otherwise that stance wouldn't be available for others- ie- women who choose it benefit from other women's Beryl.

I'm not saying you or anyone should have kids if you don't want to, but you and everyone else alive owes their existence to the birthing class of women. You benefit from othes' Beryl whether you like it or not.

I disagree. I don't think Beryl is a necessity for a society - or for humankind - to exist. In fact, I think it's an actively harmful force.

Yes, certain sacrifices are required to have children, and to exist in a peaceful society. And loving someone means placing them before you (to a certain extent).

But Beryl is essentially a sacrificial martyr. And you CAN be a mother without being a martyr. You CAN be a good lover and partner without becoming a doormat. You CAN love people and expect to be loved back, through actions, not just in words.

Actually, I strongly believe that if you love someone and just give and give and give and the beloved takes and takes and takes, that's not real love. Real love is love between equals.

I had counselling over this issue with DH, where I learned that he didn't help much because he didn't want to. Simple as. That's what it comes down to when they have to face up it.

That was revelatory. I now say no to requests I don't want to carry out. I also have stopped waiting for his "permission " to change things. I never knew I did this, but I did, and it kept me stuck in his status quo for years.

I learned that he didn't help much because he didn't want to. Simple as. That's what it comes down to when they have to face up it.

This Is Why I'll Never Be An Adult:

hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/06/this-is-why-ill-never-be-adult.html

Posting it for the illustrations and the point the author makes about herself.

For a little while, I actually feel grown-up and responsible. I strut around with my head held high, looking the other responsible people in the eye with that knowing glance that says "I understand. I'm responsible now too. Just look at my groceries."

At some point, I start feeling self-congratulatory.
...
I begin to feel like I've accomplished my goals. It's like I think that adulthood is something that can be earned like a trophy in one monumental burst of effort and then admired and coveted for the rest of one's life.

The condition of empathy comes into Beryl's make up a lot I think.
If you empathise with your MIL's disappointment when DH doesn't get her a card again it is tempting to step in.

My DH lacks empathy. I would say he inherited this from his DM, an avid housekeeper and cook, but she enjoyed having a lovely home and making nice meals, she didn't work much outside the home so this was her 'job'. So was she being kind or perhaps she was doing what she wanted to do. I don't think you'd describe her as having been a kind person. DGCs weren't allowed to play in the immaculate garden or had any plaything provided for them in her house ever.
My point is that doing wifework in the home doesn't make you a beryl, her DH had passed away.

Have read the whole thread and really enjoyed (apart from derailing nonsense along the way)

I can be v Beryl but rather randomly - will take more note and think more about why and what sets me off.

Witnessed argument today between martyred Beryl and Stanley in work situation. She'd "volunteered" to "be nice", bitterly resented it and was weeping and furious that "people weren't more grateful".

Thanks All