Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Lass you literally said that if it’s a partnership then 1 personal role is the domestic responsibilities

Yes, within the working hours. I said that quite clearly earlier in this thread. You seem to be taking exception to the suggestion that the stay at home partner should do anything unless she feels like doing it.

There is a difference between being the self-martyred Beryl taking on everything and the outrage at the idea that actually doing some domestic work might be part of the deal.

Oh my word @RebelWitchFace ... so so true. I really need to reread that and take it on board. But crikey how I start to doubt myself in these situations!!!!! I KNOW I'm not being rude or disrespectful but it seriously messes with my head when I'm trying so hard to not be a people pleaser.
I even lost a close friend because I tried to actually get my own voice heard. Not through shouting, I hasten to add! It was almost like she couldn't accept that I had an opinion of my own.
This thread is totally enlightening...

But in shutting Beryl down people see me as rude and unkind. How is it that if someone who once was ruled by Beryl suddenly starts to try to stand their ground (politely) on issues or will no longer just stay quiet and roll over suddenly we're being rude and disrespectful?! People can't handle it. And I can guarantee that I'm not being rude or disrespectful!

Part of it may just be surprise in that they weren't expecting it and had gotten used to you being Beryl and assumed that was your authentic self, but I suspect there's also a layer of guilt there, and many people if they're not very self-aware respond to feelings of guilt by trying to project those feelings onto the person who's (possibly inadvertently) made them aware that they've been being a bit of an arsehole, taking advantage, etc.

I don’t think women are naturally nuturers. I think challenging that is part of combating beryl.

I think often women have a greater chance at developing natural nuturing skills as we are the ones who carry and nurse babies, but any man who wants to can play an equal role post birth, he just has to bother & the reality is many don’t because they are socialised to see this as women’s work and lesser than men’s work so they don’t bother. Of course when we are the ones run ragged with a baby or two screaming it’s head off 24 hrs a day we become the ones who read all the parenting books and deal out other parents to ask for tips to survive and try everything bloody thing we can imagine to get a settle baby (and some sleep ourselves). Developing these skills because we had to doesn’t mean women are inherently more nurturing & compassionate though.

Lass I’m the one who has made no judgement on what the sahp (who you clearly referred to as a sahm for most of it) should do, unlike yourself.

@VMisaMarshmallow yeah sorry, good point we're not all natural nurturers and that was s sweeping generalisation on my part.

@AngryAttackKittens great point thank you. I think you've hit the nail on the head in that it highlights their shitty behaviour

Lass I’m the one who has made no judgement on what the sahp (who you clearly referred to as a sahm for most of it) should do, unlike yourself

The psrty whatever sex or gender who has opted to be the stay at home should fulfil their part of the contract. Do you seriously think what I have said does not apply to sah fathers?

You really are missing the point, that so many have stated clearly, it’s your assumption that whoever is sah means their ‘contract’ includes all the house work is what is misogynistic. And massively dismissing the importance of child rearing.

I did not say "all the housework" i have pointed that out to you repeatedly

I have said nothing which devalues the importance of child rearing. Quite the contrary actually. As part of that contract the person at home will be doing it during the day. I don't agree with the proposition that the person at work should come home and then relieve the SAHM. If there is still work to do it should be shared- with the huge proviso that if the work is say sticking washing in a machine, which the sah could easily have done during the day, they should do so.

Yet again Lass I agree. I don’t want kids, but I’ve always said that if I did, I’d want to be the working partner and the dad would SAH. Damn right I’d expect him to do the bulk of domestic work during the day - I wouldn’t expect my lunches made or work clothes pressed, but general house upkeep, yes. I’d also insist he went back to work when they went to school because I wouldn’t want to fund another adult capable of working. Anyway, beside the point. I absolutely would question and judge a stay at home dad who seemed to do nothing all day, or a dad who did zero housework and left it all to the wife, for the poster who said it’s only women who are judged. On the topic of judging other women, and that being some by product of Beryl, I actually find the women I tend to judge and be irritated by the most are the doormat people pleaser types. When friends with this kind of nature have asked me for advice, I’ve found myself getting quite irate and saying ‘just say no for god’s sake, stop being wet!’

And to the poster with the lazy colleague - I’m also domestically crap and hate cleaning, my mum visits me and cleans (I don’t ask her to, she just visits and can’t stand mess so I let her crack on) and I take my laundry back to my parents when I can’t be arsed to do it because it’s built up. Does that mean I have lazy entitled man socialisation? I’m not lazy at work, I actually manage a team!

There are plenty of lazy managers in the world.

Well, my results and work and the award nomination I got the company would suggest otherwise. I love my work, I just hate anything remotely domestic

Why are these people who cannot identify or empathise with the purposes of this thread taking up space and patting each other on the back in their being unwarrantedly judgemental about people who do actually get it?

Odd way to get your kicks.

I personally couldn't give a fuck about what these two judge other people should do with their lives. It's not interesting or adding anything. It's like an irritating white noise.

The great thing about the internet is that it’s not confined only to people who agree with each other... if you’re just looking for validation perhaps a public forum isn’t the place to do it

Mmmmmmmmmrrrrrrrraaa

It's obvious that lass/jonny squats this thread to derail it in order to prevent feminist consciousness-raising/healing on FWR.

It's clear this username pairing wants every thread to be a tedious as getting cornered by tedious men playing 'devil''s advocate' in a pub when women just want to chat to each other.

Dont be Beryl. Ignore. Please.

Ive not been on this thread as i seem to have killed any beryl i may have had and so i didnt feel that most of the thread would apply to me however interesting the subject

So i agree with likedust on this one

Although i do understand that the subject matter meanders so other 'points' may arise

I’ve been pondering Happyinheels Thoughts

something that struck a chord with me was the poster near the start of the thread who said about giving yourself the nice cut of meat or the better looking veg (words to that effect)! I've always given myself the worst portion 😂

I think this goes to the heart of it. Once you have been taught that something is the “correct” form of conduct, it’s difficult to behave differently. It feels wrong to take the crispiest roast potato, you feel guilty so don’t enjoy it , and fear someone might be watching and judging.

In reality, people who were not taught Beryl code probably have no clue about the inner turmoil of the Berylled. They dont judge because they don’t have the same complicated set of rules in their heads and so no offence is caused.

Through therapy, I learned that a lot of my can’t/won’t/shouldn’t s were self imposed, but came from incredibly judgemental and rule based foundations. To move forward - and I’m still a work in progress - I’m learning to be less judgemental of others as well of myself.

"Why are these people who cannot identify or empathise with the purposes of this thread taking up space and patting each other on the back in their being unwarrantedly judgemental about people who do actually get it? "

Is it backpatting to have a different opinion or experience? Does it say somewhere in the OP that we are only allowed on this thread if we are all like this? I haven't seen any judging. I have only seen people offer their experience. In fact, I'm growing to hate the word 'judge'. You can't offer a fucking opinion on anything these days without being accused of 'judging'.

It is obviously something that is a massive issue for the vast majority of women and so is of interest to most of us. I, for one, would love to be able to help other women give less of a fuck about being kind.

Hisaishi it’s a bit frustrating when people discuss their lived experience and other posters explain to them how they are wrong. Repeatedly.

ali well I personally haven't seen that, although tbh I have just skipped some of the wordier posts.

t's obvious that lass/jonny squats this thread to derail it in order to prevent feminist consciousness-raising/healing on FWR

Given some of the posts on this thread "feminist concious raising" has been a miserable failure. Even on here there are posters desperately trying to cling on to their martyrdom.

It's been really interesting hearing different takes on this, different experiences and how the inner Beryl is formed or not and discussing ways to overcome.

However telling other posters how they should be living their lives is not interesting, making facile comments is not interesting, having arguments for the sake of it is not interesting. A case of empty vessels I think.

When two such posters who find amusement in making sport of all the other posters (extremely inappropriately, since many of whom have shared pretty personal stuff) then start bolstering each other up at everyone else's expense, that is the back-patting I'm referring to.