Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Beryl then bathes in the glow of how wonderful she is , how kind and unselfish she is whilst at the same time complaining how put upon she is. Beryl is toxic

I see a lot of this around in my female relatives but also in female friends.

One of my worst female friends' for this DH gave me a book The Games People Play - I probaby need to re-read as I found it very helpful at the time.

Does Beryl have some contribution to this or is this sort of social capital framework more to do with altruism (from some) and the desire for social recognition/valorisation (from others)?

This is interesting. I have had to learn not to get involved with the PTA, Neighbourhood Watch, etc, because I have repeatedly been drawn into groups in my life and quickly found myself drawn right into the centre of them, with responsibilities I do not want, usually at the expense of my own plans, then facing PA digs from people who it's all about some egoistic validation. It's a headache I no longer want in my life. I have had to extracate myself carefully. I believe the 'civic Beryls' can be spotted by those needing one from a mile off and for some reason I still give the impression of being one.

what I did differently was that when she requested something that suits her, instead of responding straight away to make things work for her ( she is a nice person but just negotiates).. I decided to give myself time to think and take my own circumstances into consideration too. And so I managed to think

This is really important. Taking the time to think and figure out what 'works for' us before saying yes. Time to wonder:

Is there an internal dissonance that needs to be acknowledged?

Is there a way for both of you to be happy with the outcome?

Then you make your proposal.

the idea that it's somehow easy to do loads of housework while looking after preschoolers is so persistent and corrosive.

Agreed. Just watching over them, giving them stuff to do and cleaning up after them is a huge amount of work, that's without even the nappies/potty training/providing food etc.

I remember I once was really ill when my 1st was a toddler. I needed to doze but kept having to jump up and tidy /clean up the mess which would give my the whirlies and i'd go off and throw up. I thought at the time how much toddlers really do require. They are fascinated by everything and have no awareness of the mayhem they cause.

Although I ended up replaying this minor interaction in my head for a good few minutes afterwards it's been a bit of a turning point for me, so I'm very glad of this thread.

That's lovely to hear

Agreed. Just watching over them, giving them stuff to do and cleaning up after them is a huge amount of work, that's without even the nappies/potty training/providing food etc.

I kind of needed to hear this today as I was beating myself up for not being able to juggle my climbing baby with all the housework and paperwork.

I do think it’s unfair.

Tbh I'm kinda with Lass when she says Beryl is toxic. In my eyes she is ..she is pressure,expectations and fear. She is living your life trying to make others happy.
And if I'm honest, I resent the idea that Beryl is (altruistic)kindness. I think that kindness is me. What Beryl /society/CF's do is threaten that quality with taking it away if you don't play by their rules and standards.
What's even worse is that sometimes women try to check wether Beryl is at it again(I often see it on here), and then they end up with a whole set of extra voices added to Beryl "it's the kind/nice thing to do ofc you should do it."

Oh @likedust me too. PTA, residents groups, local campaigns, the lot. Beryl loves all that.

PTA, residents groups, local campaigns, the lot. Beryl loves all that.

Weirdly, it was watching my dad Beryl his way through the PTA that made me swear off such things at a young age. He still does it now - gets himself on a committee and ends up being the headless chicken everybody dumps on. My mum did voluntary stuff, but a bout of ill health cured her of that before I was even a teenager. I won't touch anything that has the potential for politicking after a frustrating experience in my early 20s. I'm happy to support and sometimes donate my skills, but not to take the lead for unpaid work.

ILoveHumanity

ArkeNOTen and silentcrow it makes me wonder what would happen if all the over-stretched Beryls, who plug the urgent gaps no one else steps up to fill, just stopped one day...

I kind of needed to hear this today as I was beating myself up for not being able to juggle my climbing baby with all the housework and paperwork.

If you were a nanny would you be expected to do your own or your employers housework or paperwork whilst watching their baby? No. In fact it would probably be frowned on by Ofsted. Remember that. I know sometimes it works out and they have a mammoth nap and you can get stuff done, but more often it doesn't or they create even more work in that incredible way little people have.....

Just checking into the thread to say things are still going well.

I know some people have been saying something along the lines that Beryl loves being a martyr and gets a kick out of it... well my Beryl does not conform to type there - she's resentful, sweary, dreams of abandoning everything...

However things are shifting a bit. Asking for help with the bigger tasks which require more thought and organisation is key, not just the smaller contained ones- even asking the kids.

You are right ineed

LikeDust can you elaborate on your last paragraph? Sounds very positive. My Beryl wants to learn

well my Beryl does not conform to type there - she's resentful, sweary, dreams of abandoning everything...

I wouldn't be surprised if some Beryls have been running on empty for a long time and have fantasies in which they can be completely free of the suppressive network of responsibilities in which they're enmeshed.

I don't think my Beryl is a martyr but then I have no issue asking DH and DC for help with most things.

I have experienced other female’s Beryl martyrdom trying to direct guilt onto me.

Sometimes it's the equivalent to a gift you don't really want that end up costing you time and money.

It often works like advertising with some freamle relatives getting me worried about something not on my radar then sometimes offering a solution – the solution ends up costing me money and time then I’m expected to be grateful and I often find there's then a social expectation generated of reciprocal niceness that will again cost me.

My friend, who DH gave me the book, often ended up venting to me about situation she’d created by being "nice" to someone else often with unspoken expectation I’d offer to help with no payback or acknowledgment.

Perhaps I less have a martyr Beryl just some poor sod shovelling other people’s shit. Ceartinly found the phrase not my circus not my monkeys very useful.

Duty..Beryl is duty.

can you elaborate

I think it is deciding a complete task I would really like removed from my plate then asking with a tone that I will not be fobbed off with excuses and I will not be wrought into micromanaging. For example instead of thinking through and listing all the things needed from the shops, saying to DP "DC is on a school trip tomorrow - can you get everything for packed lunch please?".

It's subtle, but really removes the stress of being responsible for everything.

Beryl is duty

I agree. Feeling responsible - even for things that are beyond your remit or things you have no power or control over. Its a recipe for massive guilt, being set up to fail and being dammed if you do and damned if you don't.

It makes me wonder about the handmaiden thing.

Why is it on FWR women were gushing and grateful and took years to call out males who take liberties with our kindness, boundaries and spaces?

Why do women feel a duty to be especially attentive and grateful towards males on a bloody feminist forum- some of whom were probably here specifically to gaslight us? Being utter selfish bastard Stanleys banging on about their own needs for years.

That is Berylly self harm: - women sweetly listening and thanking while dutifully chucking our rights down the toilet so that males don't have to feel bad.

SwearyBeryl (which I'm keeping on the list for my next name change) puts me in mind of how Mrs Doyle from Father Ted might be if she was unberylled.

I think there is a huge difference between being kind and altruistic through choice compared with doing the same things because you should, "it's expected", it's a habit or because no other bugger will bother.

I've been reading this thread with great interest. As an experiment, as it was world kindness day on Tuesday I tried to be very kind to myself all day (I don't have paid employment on Tuesdays)

It worked. I spent the day looking after myself and have felt so much less stressed for the rest of the week.

I'll be doing it again and looking out for other days that have "shoulds" attached, (World kindness day = we "should" be kinder iyswim)

Ilove been thinking about this thread and, in addition to what I said earlier, was thinking about how - when I worked from home (which I did for a bit, full time)there was no expectation from anyone that I'd magically do all the housework in working hours. I think DH has got over his 'SAHMs do all the housework' by now but really, why wouldn't you expect that of someone working in a paid job at home but do of a SAHM/D with a preschooler at home?

I have a dilemma. A group I belong to is holding a collection for an ex member who threw a tantrum over something petty & left.

I'm not close to the person that left and if I'm honest I think she's a bully. I've not been on the receiving end but have seen her treat other people badly.

So should I contribute to the collection? It would be kind, moral and is usual thing to do. Were I to say no, I suppose there is a chance of being judged for not contributing and it might make others feel compelled to give extra.

On the other hand I don't like the woman and I'm glad she has left so I don't really want to contribute. Probably should add at this point no one else has contributed either so I may not be the only one who is "pausing".

I would usually contribute regardless, but this thread has made me stop and think. Which is a good thing.

I wouldn't contribute because it's a flounce.

I do love a moral dilemma when it's not mine Alice.

I wonder what all the others putting the collection together are thinking and feeling.

Do they feel bad for her and/or sorry she's gone?

Do they feel not much either way, but are doing a collection because 'that's what you do'?

Are they actually being a bit passive aggressive in a kind of 'we wouldn't stoop down to your level and so fuck you here's a reminder' way?

Or are they also feeling a bit conflicted and doubtful as they go through the motions of the fare thee well send off?

Interesting isn’t it likedust? and I think until this thread I would have just contributed ‘because it’s what you do’.

Interesting too, that I’m imagining if I asked the question In AIBU, I would probably be told to suck it up. But really why should I?

But as rebel puts it - she flounced. Why even hold a collection?