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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

482 replies

arranfan · 02/11/2018 10:19

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

OP posts:
Hisaishi · 13/11/2018 09:58

like honestly, I think it's better to just engage directly with posters instead of making veiled comments.

It saves confusion.

LikeDust · 13/11/2018 10:03

Thank you for your opinon Hisaishi i generally agree with you but my opinion is that it depends on the poster and their motivation for being on a thread.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/11/2018 10:04

Maybe start a new thread, LikeDust, explicitly labelled as for supportive discussion? Since apparently there's going to be no saving this one.

Hisaishi · 13/11/2018 10:05

dust well if you want to start deprogramming yourself, 'not making PA comments, but just coming out with what you want to say' sounds like a pretty good way to start.

ILoveHumanity · 13/11/2018 10:06

yesterday I learnt a way to be kind but not a push over and it felt really good.

I had a casual friend who couldn’t pay for my services as agreed and I informed them that I can lower the price for them but that they would have to do me a favour (I specified) in return or compromise on some of their standards. I think they were shocked because they assumed I would just offer the same thing for the lower price.

Usually I would’ve just felt sorry for them and did as they please.

I feel mean while I type this, but I have told myself I will treat everyone with caution at this stage since I’m known to bend over backwards and so it’s almost “expected” by the best of people. Especially if they’re the demanding type who don’t take my circumstances into consideration. And that if I find that they’re the real kind and gentle souls who would stick with me through thick and thin then I would give more and more.

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/11/2018 10:07

The wording in the opening post is flawed.

Beryl's behaviour isn't kindness. Quite the opposite. It certainly isn't a kindness to her female children for whom she is setting a terribly example; nor for her male children for whom she is normalising this behaviour as to what is expected in a relationship.

For herself, it may be a sort of kindness since being the person who is responsible for everything presumably is a boost to her sense of worth.

ILoveHumanity · 13/11/2018 10:09

LikeDust how’s your Beryl getting on in the school of Dust?

LikeDust · 13/11/2018 10:10

I think the OP is fantastic. I couldn't better it.

Surely certain people who love to be dicks would seek out any other similar thread to indulge in their daily dose of dickishness?

Has this worked before - putting 'supportive' in the title as far as you know kittens?

AngryAttackKittens · 13/11/2018 10:14

I dunno, honestly. I just can't think of any other way to proceed if people are determined to push this thread in the direction it's currently going. Sometimes it's possible to re-rail threads, but it tends to take some discipline in terms of just not responding to things that you know aren't going to lead the thread in a useful direction. And then inevitably someone will get pissed off enough that they can't help responding, and you're back off-rail again.

Ali1cedowntherabbithole · 13/11/2018 10:25

Ilove that's a good example, and one that sounds like it achieved the desired result. I think a lot of progress can be made through repeated mini cycles like this and we should share our successes.

Thank You for sharing.

LikeDust · 13/11/2018 10:31

ILoveHumanity

I've been reflecting a lot about the past and absorbing a lot of what people have been saying.

I've been doing more for me in smaller decisions eg- I got quite a large free gift box at the Bodyshop and I couldn't gift it to someone else because that would make me feel like an arse so I thought i'd donate it to the school. But yesterday I decided instead to just open it and use it on myself - it's really nice stuff - shower gel, body butter, etc. That was an interesting feeling.

At home at the weekend I was annoyed at all the household stuff that needs doing so I said to DP - "you go and think about what needs doing in the shower and come back and tell me what we're doing". That made a big difference - changing the person responsible for orchestrating - a lot of stuff got done and it was such a relief - I'm feeling the benefit, in terms of well being today.

LikeDust · 13/11/2018 10:35

ILoveHumanity that is a great story. Did you do that on the fly or did you prepare yourself to negotiate beforehand?

LikeDust · 13/11/2018 10:40

they can't help responding

This is the thing AngryAttackKittens I prefer to keep ploughing on as far as and calling out the derails if they go on too long.

AngryAttackKittens · 13/11/2018 10:47

If people who struggle with Beryl are finding value in talking to each other about strategies on how to manage the whole thing then that's what to focus on, I think, in terms of re-railing.

Hisaishi · 13/11/2018 10:52

All you need to do in terms of re-railing is to ignore the posters that are de-railing. Pretty simple.

LikeDust · 13/11/2018 10:52

Yes

LikeDust · 13/11/2018 10:53

That was to kittens

bigKiteFlying · 13/11/2018 11:01

It's an interesting point about pushing back being perceive so negatively.

I wonder if that’s why I felt so much familiar and social pressure with motherhood, that eventually empowered Beryl, was it because motherhood was making me more assertive in early years.

LassWiADelicateAir · 13/11/2018 12:29

If you really wanted to deal with Beryl you would recognise her toxicity.

Beryl is not a good thing. Beryl is not kind or supportive. Beryl encourages her daughters to be doormats and her sons to use women as doormats. Beryl then bathes in the glow of how wonderful she is , how kind and unselfish she is whilst at the same time complaining how put upon she is. Beryl is toxic. FWR is keen on calling out toxic masculinity - female behaviour can be toxic too.

arranfan · 13/11/2018 12:35

Somewhere in the early discussion, a poster asked if people without a Beryl benefited from other people's Beryls not only as individuals but on a wider societal scale.

It's taken a while for me to remember what this reminded me of but it's the discussion of social capital in Putnam's Bowling Alone .He makes the point that as someone who travels a lot and isn't at all involved in his neighbourhood networks, the safety of his home, and the impact on his relatively low insurance premiums, depends upon the networks to which he makes no practical contribution.

Putnam benefits from Neighbourhood Associations, the neighbours who keep an eye on each other's homes and who look after each other. All of these affect the value of his home and neighbourhood and make it somewhere with a good quality of life.

More widely, there are implications for public health, civic engagement, and other social goods. We're disconnected from others when there is an absence of regular social connection and the exchange/acknowledgements of actions and favours (that's my clumsy summary there).

There's a discussion of some parts of Putnam's ideas here:

If a decline in civic activities is the input then a drop social trust is the output in Putnam’s social capital calculus....Couple that with the “loosening bonds of the family” and closed-off neighbors and according to Putnam, we see a society that is dishearteningly disconnected. Conversely, controlling for most socioeconomic factors—race, income, education, etc—he found that with more social capital in a state, the more educated and well-off are its children, the lower the homicide rate, the greater the degree of public health, and the smaller the likelihood of tax evasion.

medium.com/@abhinemani/bowling-alone-and-living-with-others-2eb0a8298031

Does Beryl have some contribution to this or is this sort of social capital framework more to do with altruism (from some) and the desire for social recognition/valorisation (from others)?

OP posts:
ILoveHumanity · 13/11/2018 12:37

Lass I see where you are coming from. That sometimes Beryl could become entrenched into our perception of self worth. The more we give the more we feel good and then it becomes addictive.

But I see it as rooted in something good. Kindness and compassion. Just an exaggerated misdirected sense of that.

And I don’t think everyone is doing it out of selfishness.. because I’m Essence they see it as it’s a win win. The other person gets what they want and Beryl feels good about making others pleased.

It’s destructive to the true self of the giver. A bit like addictions.

Am not sure what you mean when you say toxic, it almost sounds like you believe Beryl doesn’t deserve any empathy.

ILoveHumanity · 13/11/2018 12:42

Likedust

I think what I did differently was that when she requested something that suits her, instead of responding straight away to make things work for her ( she is a nice person but just negotiates).. I decided to give myself time to think and take my own circumstances into consideration too. And so I managed to think 🤔 If I’m happy I could do things without resentment so how can I make it work for me too? And I don’t have to be her martyr, if we can’t reach somewhere that we are both happy about, there is plenty others who can help her.

Sounds silly but that doesn’t naturally come to me.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 13/11/2018 13:22

I think the idea that it's somehow easy to do loads of housework while looking after preschoolers is so persistent and corrosive. If you completely ignore your child and leave them crying in a cot /playpen for hours I suppose you could get a lot done.

Nannies don't do this. Nursery workers aren't expected to simultaneously run a laundry and catering service whilst also looking after babies.

Johnnyfinland · 13/11/2018 13:31

Surely if you want to stop being that way you should find it interesting to have a glimpse into the psyche of two people who do not struggle with this. But instead when Lass and I share our own personal perspectives you feel judged? So how are you actually planning to overcome this if all you want is a discussion between people who feel the same and are too terrified to be assertive? Why are our personal experiences from the other end of the scale such a threat to you?

ACatsNoHelpWithThat · 13/11/2018 13:45

I had a personal mini-victory over the weekend directly because of this thread making me think about the way I behave.

I joined a queue in the supermarket behind someone with a full trolley's worth of stuff on the conveyor belt which had already started to be scanned. I only had around seven items, no self-serve tills. After I'd waited a while and it was nearly my turn a lady with three items joined the queue behind me and asked if she could go ahead of me as she only had three items. I just said a simple no, I don't have that many items myself. Prior to this thread I'd have either said yes, or said no but apologised profusely and made up further excuses. She said "Oh" and looked rather taken aback but I resisted the urge to say sorry to her.

I'm a very anxious person and realised I have a ferocious Beryl who not only holds me back but has also given me unrealistic expectations as to how others should behave. Although I ended up replaying this minor interaction in my head for a good few minutes afterwards it's been a bit of a turning point for me, so I'm very glad of this thread.