Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

The older I get the more I think that all girls should be taught by nuns, who don't give a fuck about men's opinions
I was taught by nuns in junior school, and frankly it was all about putting yourself absolutely last. And the priest was god. This was more than 40 years ago though.

Watching this thread as I could do with some tips.

I'm very assertive at home with dh but even with close family and friends I allow people to wall all over me for fear of upsetting people.

Definitely a skill I'd like to acquire for both me and my young dd, to not allow yourself to be a doormat

When you stop being ‘nice’ they get so angry.

I think there are three stages to the deprogramming and they're all quite hard work. As pp have said, it's all in the detail, the tiny actions and assumptions nobody even notices. So first we have to notice when it happens, even though most of the time it will be something really slight and in the scheme of things unimportant. Secondly, we have to make a commitment to stop allowing it, even though 'making a fuss' will initially be very uncomfortable. And thirdly we need to learn a language of refusal, which might need some practice before we can use it on the fly.

Great thread idea. Will be back....

Ah sorry mickhucknall I hear where you're coming from a family member is currently going through a divorce. The wife refused a $4mil settlement (very generous). Turning the youngest DS against him, the older DS (at UNI) on side with Dad.

Basically even women the wife has known since high school are not supporting her. Sometimes women can be greedy. It's torn our family apart, a nasty divorce affects much more than the couple involved.

Woah... I was going to post something similar for a thread on Fwr this afternoon.

My question was: how do you junk your gender programming?

Embarrassingly, it's taken me until my early 40s to realise my gender programming has pretty much screwed up my life. It's kept me stuck, unable to move forward with what I really want to do.

I made the decision last night to refer to the gender programming in my life as "Beryl." I have this idea that if I label the behaviours as an alien persona, I can somehow divorce them from myself.

For me, Beryl is most obvious when it comes to priorities: the housework being placed above developing my own skills and knowledge, for example. She pretty much drives all the practical "shoulds" in my life.

I hate her and want to destroy her. Yes, it's that bad. I think she's influenced a frightening number of decisions in my life, which, of course, meant I ended up with Beryl's life, rather than mine, which just entrenched her more.

Unpicking it and eradicating her influence is going to be hard going. So much of it is just automatic. It's not so much kindness with me as this odd sense of my role to be a supporting character in other people's lives.

Have you heard that "cheer leader" song that's popular at the moment? That just exemplifies the whole fucking problem: females as 24/7 personal assistants to lily livered males.

Do you know how bad it got with me?

An old college friend, male, contacted me a few years ago after 20 years and proceeded to phone every week for two hours or more to talk to me about all the problems in his life. He wasn't remotely interested in my life, just wanted to use me as an ear: fundamentally, as unpaid counselling.

And I did it. I answered the phone everytime because "Beryl" (my gender programming) told me that if I didn't, I was being mean, that he needed someone to talk to, that I was being a good person by doing it.

I look back now and think "Wtf"? I owed nothing to this bloke. He's actually a bit of an obnoxious twat that bangs on about his important job and his seven figure salary and his four kids all at private and how much money it costs...

Why did I do it?

Because of fucking Beryl.

Have you heard that "cheer leader" song that's popular at the moment?

God I just listened to it. It's utterly awful isn't it. Absolutely nothing reciprocal.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm going to try and find the fine line between kindness and sacrifice.

"Beryl" (my gender programming) told me that if I didn't, I was being mean, that he needed someone to talk to, that I was being a good person by doing it.

^ Yes! I think some of the problem is that it feels like the logical opposite of kind is unkind - yes, it is the antonym, but the absence of kindness (however that's being defined) does not mean that it follows that there is unkindness^.

I wonder if Beryl would like MrsTerryPratchett's fabulous phrase (used in another thread): You don't have to rescue him for him to recover.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3316705-to-hope-that-DS-late-20s-will-want-finally-to-get-off-the-streets#79698675

Language is important in dealing with this. I’ve made a definite effort to do this over the last few years. My tips would be.

1. Learn to say no. Not ‘i’d Love to but’ or ‘I would but.’ Just no. It’s very interesting to see people’s reactions. Of course in some work situations a simple no doesn’t work, so try ‘yes I can do x. However with the resources we have I cannot do x and y. Which is most important and how can we get x and y done?’

Do not JADE - justify, apologise defend or explain yourself. Women do this all the time. So:
‘I’d love to but I can’t because’ - JADE. The old ‘no that doest work for me’ instead.

When you find yourself under pressure to do something you really don’t want to think carefully. Is this something you really should do? Helping someone out on a rainy night when you know that person would do the same for you and has your back? Do it. But if you know they don’t, it’s Ok to say no. I see women run ragged dashing round after everyone else and no one reciprocates.

Almost all of this is about the courage to say no. No to unreasonable demands. No to cheeky fuckery.

And that’s why when women’s saying NO is ignored, I get pissed off. You’re allowed boundaries. If your boundaries are reasonable and people are pushing them, they are at fault and you CAN say no.

More no basically. A whole heap of no.

A genuine question though,

Isn’t it in itself not respecting our individualism to say

“Let’s Be entitled like men”? Or anything of the sort where we are basing the parameters of equality around men’s current state or nature ?.

Surely the terms of equality should be somewhere where both meet somewhere in the middle ?

Why shouldn’t men learn to be less entitled and more kind and us to celebrate our compassionate traits but be more selective as to who deserve it ( I.e only men who learnt to be kind “

I have been alerted to misleading, sympathetic and biased reporting of crimes against women and children. I applaud the people who switched on that lightbulb for me, via Twitter.

"No, the child didn't have sex with 100 men, she was raped by 100 men. Are you apologists for rapists now?"

"No, he isn't a doting dad, he's a murderer. Your biased reporting and obvious sympathy for a man who killed his partner and left two children without a mother, makes you untrustworthy as a source of news"

"That's not a woman, that's a man and a paedophile. How can we trust you when you cover up the truth, Chief Constable?"

And so on.

Ilove- yes, aspiring to male behaviour isn't really what we want to be doing.
But to correct the imbalance we need to over correct. Trying to meet in the middle when men have no intention of doing so will achieve nothing.
We need bold action.

TheOtherPamAyres

I think you've summed it up really well. So many women are yelling fuck politeness. The media (male dominated) need to try and twist our perceptions. I'm hoping they really are taking it a step too far, that even men (sad to have to have this as standard) are saying hang on a minute? That makes no sense.

I was taught by nuns in junior school, and frankly it was all about putting yourself absolutely last.

I had Mercy nuns (no mercy shown!). What order did you have?

Why shouldn’t men learn to be less entitled and more kind and us to celebrate our compassionate traits but be more selective as to who deserve it

I don't think Society functions well when it's jousting between entitlements - it would feel like yet another version of Top Trumps.

It all depends on what "kindness" means - and whether it's being compelled or coerced or is a genuinely voluntary act.

I'm not necessarily near being able to examine it, but I'm not sure that "kindness" can be deserved or reserved for those who deserve it.

Watching with interest. Beryl has a lot to answer for.

As a child I used to think to myself ‘why can’t everyone be nice and kind ? I will strive to be nice to everyone’. I’m not saying I have been nice to everyone but I’ve benchmarked myself through life. I’m fact I have stood for things I shouldn’t have because even though I was angry, I didn’t feel I should be angry. I thought feminist was about equal rights and women working. I had no idea I was fighting my inner Beryl for it

Following. I too have a Beryl. Also had an old friend get back in touch and he wanted constant support about his work/home life and health. It was always anout him. I got fed up with it so told him so and he called me nasty and a “typical woman”. This is a bloke who earns ovef 100k a year, has no holidays by choice and complains that his trenage daughter had no respect and that his wife doesnt sleep with him. I just told him to get couples councelling and stop moaning. As i say, disnt go down well!

For de-programming try giving yourself the best jacket potato, the best cut of meat, the non-scrabby runner beans, etc. when dishing out meals. Give yourself the largest slice of pizza, choose the family meal based on what you want to eat.

It's a small but worthwhile act of rebellion against female-submissive programming.

Dropping in the thread, Rage Becomes Her :

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370674-Rage-Becomes-Her

Something I quoted there.

Traister emphasizes the political as well as personal significance of women’s anger, which she regards as one of the driving forces in ‘every major social and political movement that has shaped this nation [i.e., the USA]’. Yet as she also says, the anger that drove women to take radical political action as abolitionists, feminists, civil rights activists and labour organizers has often been either forgotten or else transformed into something we find more palatable. As an illustration she quotes Angela Davis’s point about Rosa Parks (recorded in Pratibha Parmar’s aptly-titled 1991 documentary A Place of Rage): now often remembered as that nice, respectable Black lady who refused to go to the back of the bus because she was tired, Parks was actually an experienced, canny and courageous political activist.

hyenainpetticoatsblog.wordpress.com/2018/09/19/all-the-rage/

Haha I bet it would be noticed very quickly!

try giving yourself the best jacket potato, the best cut of meat, the non-scrabby runner beans, etc. when dishing out meals. Give yourself the largest slice of pizza, choose the family meal based on what you want to eat.

If people were to react with shock to that relatively small but important action, then that would be very telling.

Great thread.loving “Beryl”.

I’m delighted by how much better I’ve got over the last few years. This board, and using “what would a man say?” techniques help. Learning to do some sales and marketing also v good.

I’m working on not apologising when I don’t have to. I’ve started with emails as I can go back and rewrite them. Every time I ask someone to do something by email, I cut out the apologies. Likewise, if I correct something. I’ve been doing it for several weeks but it still isn’t automatic. Beryl is tenacious. I’m not yet at the stage where I’m quick enough saying it but I did just say “No” to something without grovelling the other day. I’ll get there.