Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

No you didn't. And I get where you're coming from. I mean,if you're home anyways there's no logic in waiting until 6 pm for your partner to do the breakfast dishes.

But experience (either lived or witnessed) showed us that most people do mean EVERYTHING. I'm always baffled when my friend's husbands moan about x or y not being done, or that the house is spotless but they missed a rolled up nappy behind the door, or the inquisition of what exactly have they done that day, or the refusal to do anything except going to work etc.

I think you are all asking the wrong question.

I think you should be asking why wouldn’t the man come home and get shopping on the way back/cook family dinner/put his children to bed after baths and a story/stick the washing on/iron his own shirt for the next day/make his&kids pack ups or whatever share of the family work he took part in that evening. If he was single he would have to take care of himself/his home/kids if with him, so why not if part of a team? Kids need parented by both parents not just one, and if mums done it all day why would he not want to step in and do some once back in the home? Equally it’s his home so why would he not want to invest his time in caring for it and taking pride in its appearance. And why would he not want to put some time and effort in contributing to his relationship by picking up stuff for dinner, planning and cooking the dinner for his partner? Not all of it every night of course, but why would a man not want to invest his time and effort and emotional energy into his home, relationship and children?

It’s not about the investment that men often don’t put in verses how much emotional investment and emotional labour women shoulder within the relationship. It’s about that power balance and about it not being ok for men to not be equally invested in the home, relationship and children they took equal part in creating. If a man doesn’t want to put in equal effort then us women end up carrying that burden alone. And it’s lonely. And not a healthy example for girls or boys to see as ok.

And what exactly has the SAHM been doing all day? Particularly if the children are school age?

Of course parenting should be shared but to suggest that someone who has been at work all day should delay their return home and go and do shopping, which the other party has had all day today is ridiculously unfair.

This thread has been derailed.

It's about deprogramming oneself from self-harming kindness and exploring that idea, not for prescribing/judging how labour should be divided in other people's homes.

The labour split is sort of relevant because how it can affect the respect/status/value balance in a relationship and leave one person feeling like shit, but the relevance ends there.

Maybe this derailment is best ignored? There is so much more to this phenomenon than division of labour- it even affects women's lack of entitlement to make art ffs.

My mum was, in many ways, a pretty shite mother, she yelled a lot, she loved running me down (calling me stupid, lazy etc when I really wasn't), sarcastic, mean and neglectful (not washing my clothes when I had peed myself, withholding meals etc).

However, I will be forever grateful that she never ever told me I needed to be kind to other people. My mother loathes and detests everyone on this planet and had no qualms telling me that I should do the same. As a result, my first inclination is to be extremely wary of most people. As such, I have never thought twice about saying no to things I don't want to do, telling people when they are being dickheads, standing up to shitty boyfriends/friends, walking away from assholes or whacking creepy gropers in clubs in their stupid ugly faces. I had some problems standing up to authority figures (bosses, teachers) when I was younger, but out of fear, not kindness but not these days.

As an example, I remember some guys were talking to my friends in the pub one night. These guys seemed extremely boring and kind of creepy, but my friends seemed to be laughing and having a good time so I left them to it. After chatting to them for two or more hours, my friends came over to me and said 'omg those guys are awful, but we couldn't get away from them.' In those circumstances, I don't think twice about telling such guys to leave me alone, and if they won't, to get the bar staff to throw them out. But so often, my friends will just put up with it and even tell me off for being rude if I ask them to leave us alone. I don't get it. THEY'RE the ones being rude by not leaving me alone when I request it so I don't really get why my friends are so worried about appearing rude.

While out and out misanthropy is not great either and I've had to learn to not despise everyone I meet on sight, I am so glad I was never a kind/nice/lovely person who hurts herself to avoid hurting other people.

For my troubles, yes, I get called intimidating, a bitch, terrifying, full of myself, entitled, up myself, a snob and so on. At times, I kind of believed maybe I was those things and wondered if I should be nicer - social pressure is a very hard thing to avoid. But I was told by a therapist that I actually just have extremely healthy boundaries and self-respect. There is also the possibility I have autism (I was told by the same therapist that I should go for tests) so maybe that's part of it - I don't see why I should be kind or polite to people who are not kind or polite to me, and I don't see why I shouldn't just tell the truth (within limits, of course.)

I don't know how to teach other people to be like this, however. I think the main thing for me is just that I refuse to be polite to anyone who is not polite to me.

I used to be a people pleaser. Over the last 8-10 uears I’ve been gradually depriving Beryl of oxygen. Anxiety provoking situations (eg newjob) occasionally give her a breather and room to grow, but less so now.

All of my immediate family when I was growing up saw me as their personal support and counselling service. My emotional support needs did not even factor into their thinking. Growing up that way definitely colours your approach.

Part of my ‘recovery’ was managing a horrendously selfish woman who slacked off at every turn and was happy to take credit for orhers’ work. Like reverse “What would Jesus do?” I started asking myself “would M do unpaid overtime this weekend to get x done, or would she get the team to do it this week instead?” Stay late, or leave on time like M tonight? God I loathed managing her, but she was a case study in not giving a fuck. Utterly shameless. With hindsight, I learned so much from her. It opened my eyes. Once that kind of take take take is seen, it can’t be unseen. I also stopped martyring myself to family harmony - up til then the caring and support had been 90%+ me to them.

Perhaps there is some merit to the phrase “being cruel to be kind”

That's definitely a phrase that could come in handy.

boatyard This is my theory. A lot of women lack self confidence cos of society etc. So they do all the shitwork, stay late, run around after friends and family because it makes them feel needed. That, in turn, gives them confidence, albeit shaky confidence because it's reliant on other people needing them.

People like your colleague don't feel the same lack of confidence for whatever reason. They don't need to be needed so they just do what they feel like.

I honestly cringe when I see some women juggling so many plates, always busy busy, running here and there - but they so often seem to be almost proud of that? Like they go to all these parties and events etc because they just can't say no...but actually, they don't WANT to say no either, because that would mean they're not needed by someone.

This...

www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/men-hating-women

You sound like me Hisaishi. The only time I’ve felt desperate to be liked is when I was bullied and teased at school and seen as the outsider and the geek. But rather than alter myself for other people’s benefit, I realised it was better to just accept some people are nasty, not everyone will like me and it doesn’t matter. I can honestly, hand in heart say, that since my late teens/early twenties I have never felt a compulsion to be needed or liked, to please people, or to do things I don’t want to do for someone else’s benefit. I’m still incredulous so many people do feel like that, tbh. Like you I don’t think I was ever told growing up ‘be kind and put others before yourself at all times’. My mum was lovely (sorry yours wasn’t) and she’d tell me to follow my dreams and be myself. My dad was a raging misanthrope and told me nobody was to be trusted. I’ve definitely got that from him

It mystifies me too johnny . Some stuff I can understand (feeling pressured to go to an event or doing stuff for work etc) but I don't get doing those things just because you think you need to be nice. Work especially. 99% of companies will fuck you over the first chance they get, so no idea why people (women especially) feel compelled to stay late etc just to play nice.

People like your colleague don't feel the same lack of confidence for whatever reason. They don't need to be needed so they just do what they feel like.

I actually think she had lazy, entitled man socialisation. Even though she was in her late 30s & child free, she was totally OK with her mum coming round every week when she was in work and doing her housework and laundry for her. If I recall, her partner did all the cooking. She revelled in being useless at home and it bled into her professional life. Like people said upthread, more often than not there’s a Beryl somewhere in the picture enabling this shit. The rest of the team were solid gold adult team-players, so she was uniformly unpopular.

I still admired her lack of giving a fuck and felt I could do with a bit of it myself. When something ping a boundary, I pause and ask myself what M would do. I have become a lot more assertive as a result.

Like - it’s not a derailment. People judge others harshly on what they judge themselves harshly on, especially if said person is same sex or in similar enough role. The automatic jump to question what samhs do all day (which really is no ones business) is what I’m challenging as that’s the ‘beryl’ coming out. No one questions what men are doing with their time when they could be investing it in their relationship/home/kids/other family. There’s no justifiable reason to jump to questioning what a woman does with her time when someone would never question what a man is doing with his time, it’s just ‘beryl’ and detangling that judgement of others means examining why thar judgements there. Why ‘beryl’ tells them other women must be 100% productive & family focused, as the ‘beryl’ that does that is no doubt the same ‘beryl’ that tells them they must not take rest time/personal development time/socialising time for themselves. Challenging that judgement is important. It’s not about what sahms do with their time, it’s why the need to question women yet not men.

Christ I hope you can make sense of that dust, I’m so over tried & filled with pain meds I’m a bit less coherent that my usual muddle. I’m still right though ; )

The automatic jump to question what samhs do all day (which really is no ones business) is what I’m challenging as that’s the ‘beryl’ coming out. No one questions what men are doing with their time when they could be investing it in their relationship/home/kids/other family. There’s no justifiable reason to jump to questioning what a woman does with her time when someone would never question what a man is doing with his time

Someone at work will certainly be questioned on what they have been doing all day.

If you treat a couple as a partnership where they have decided 1 partner's role is to go out and earn money and the other partner's role is looking after the domestic side of it what is so unreasonable in expecting both will fulfil their roles? Why on earth should the party at work be expected to pick up on the domestic role if the domestic role can be carried out in the working hours?

That's not being a Beryl- that is doing one's fair share.

Assuming others family set up is that the sahm has agreed to do all of the house work is absolutely beryl. And feeling the need to question what a woman does with her time to contribute to her family/home/relationship when entirely unwilling to question what a man does to contribute/invest in the relationship/family/kids/home in his time again is beryl.

You know nothing of other couples set ups or agreements. Assuming you do & you know best what the woman should do with her time is misogyny.

Assuming others family set up is that the sahm has agreed to do all of the house work is absolutely beryl

I didn't say that. I didn't actually say any of what you have interpreted it as.

You seem to be suggesting it is unreasonable that Beryl should do any part of the mutual contract unless she feels like it. You seem to be suggesting that Beryl can sit around all day and that's fine and that Beryl can expect her partner to pick up on domestic stuff when he gets home from work.

I agree with you VMisaMarshmallow

Nothing wrong with examining division of labour - but berating other women as though this is thread is titled : AIBU thinking SAHM's shouldnt do all the housework, wife work, shit work 24/7 7 days a week so that earning partner doesn't need to lift a finger once they've set foot indoors and live like a prince with servant to do their bidding?
Is taking the thread in a totally different and combative direction to suit the kind of posters who have high conflict personalities and like arguing for the sake of it- no one is asking whether we are being unreasonable, the thread is more investigative/supportive. I don't think the lust for combat should be indulged.

Certainly been working on teaching my Beryl the meaning of “tough love” and that smothering is a form of neglect.

How’s everyone getting on ?

I do think this notion that SAHMs have loads of time to spare is really interesting because in other countries I've lived in this is not the way they're thought about at all.

People don't think paid nannies are sitting around doing nothing all day, and a SAHM to pre-school children is just being a nanny to your own kids. Most nannies have a clause in their contract that says they will do housework associated with the children but not general stuff / stuff for the adults in the house. Why, when it's your OWN kids is it suddenly assumed you have time to do all the housework associated with your OH as well in just their working hours? You wouldn't think it was fair for a nanny working outside their own home to work as a nanny all day and then go home and do all housework / cooking etc in their own home while their (also working) DH does nothing.

Anyway, don't mean to de-rail. It's interesting though that nannies have to specify this in their contracts - perhaps the insidious creep of Beryl-dom where doing something (cooking, washing) for the children then turns into doing ALL of it ALL of the time is the very reason they need to do this, and I bet that live in nannies have more trouble with this than live out as well. Just by being there all the time. Would be really interesting to hear from nannies on this I think.

And of course most nannies are nannies (rather than housekeepers) because they like working with children and teaching children rather than because they love housework. Presumably most SAHMs/Ds are SAH for the same reason.

Lass you literally said that if it’s a partnership then 1 personal role is the domestic responsibilities. So yep you said what I said you said. And if you read what I said I never once said what a woman should do, so I didn’t say what you claim I did. What a manipulation of the content.

Yeah like I see that now, I thought anyone contributing to such a thread as this would be opening to examining and combating beryl, silly me. I guess beryl runs very very deep in some, which is hardly surprising as socialisation has a hefty effect.

Imho when beryl has played a part in my life the first thing, or may be the most effective thing, was to challenge my judgement of other women. When I could let go of the need to judge other woman I didn’t have to judge myself by such hard standards also.

Generally I see the ‘it takes a village’ attitude the minute any man is a single parent or the sahp or any other traditional women’s role. Everyone else, often women, rally round him as if he’s being a hero or as if he’s incapable, men tend to get so much more help than woman do. Women tend to be left to cope on their own, it’s assumed they can and they are still heavily criticised for it. I think combating ‘beryl’ can be done by examining those inequalities in our judgement and/or our own lives. While rarely would I think what would a man do is a reasonable course of actions, with regards to this it can be- would a man both to care if he doesn’t do everything to help others, would a man feel guilty if he doesn’t put 100% of effort into worrying about parenting or the home etc.

I think also the assumption of Beryl-dom is interesting. I have a friend who is a high-flying woman (as is her husband - think city types) and they have a full-time nanny. She once moaned to me that the nanny didn't do more housework. Now I think that's really interesting. She has decided to work (they're so rich she - or her husband - absolutely could have chosen to stay home but likely their careers would have suffered) and they employ someone to look after their children. Maybe it was a throwaway comment but it implies an assumption that childcare and general domestic duties should go hand in hand. I remember feeling somehow as if it was 'off' at the time (and remember thinking good on the nanny that the lack of domestic work is in cast iron in the contract). I probably should have just asked why they don't employ a housekeeper!

I have found this thread absolutely fascinating. This is something I've struggled with most of my life. Yep, I'm one of those adults who had a terrible childhood and hence I'm a 'people pleaser.' Aside from this though, I do think that as women we are nurturers and as such naturally more kind and compassionate. This can translate into being taken advantage of/walked all over...
something that struck a chord with me was the poster near the start of the thread who said about giving yourself the nice cut of meat or the better looking veg (words to that effect)! I've always given myself the worst portion 😂
Anyway, I digress! The point I wanted to make was this. I've worked hard on shutting Beryl down over these past 10 years or so. It's not as hard to find that people might not like me. But in shutting Beryl down people see me as rude and unkind. How is it that if someone who once was ruled by Beryl suddenly starts to try to stand their ground (politely) on issues or will no longer just stay quiet and roll over suddenly we're being rude and disrespectful?! People can't handle it. And I can guarantee that I'm not being rude or disrespectful!

@Happyinheels they can handle it,they just don't like it and they don't want to. So they use the accusations of rude and disrespectful to try and bring Beryl back to surface. There's nothing more scary for Beryl than disapproval and the indication that she's somehow lacking/failing.