Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Oh sorry I don't have any huge life changing suggestions but by god I'm here to learn some.

After a divorce at a cost of £30000 to me, and losing half my furniture I went into another relationship like a f*ckwad,

Even though I took it slowly he moved in after 3 years and after a year of sulking and moods announced that he was walking out in 14 days. I lost my job last week and my health is shot to pieces and now I have to give three months notice on an expensive house, find a place, and cover his half of the rent for the next 4 months minimum.

When I started packing his stuff the day after he announced his plan to scuttle off like a cockroach with no responsibility, he got angry with me and I was like a mad bitch apparently. I should just let him make a dignified exit I guess. 😒

So after 4 years of kindness, thoughtful gifts, a car, support, accepting him for him, being a listening ear, I am now just a mad bitch.

Give me strength please. Sorry for the rant. I can't do this again. I won't do this again.

On the plus side - I've started to see that entitlement behaviour in little ways from my son. Mainly after being with his dad. Just little things like me buying a cake for myself and him expecting I'll just give it to him if he asks.

I always respond with "why are your feelings or wants more important than mine?"

There generally isn't a suitable retort to that.

But my DS is a sweetie, learning how to respect women, and not an aggressive gaslighting moody git.

Great thread idea.

I agree. I've seen this referred to elsewhere as pathological altruism.

Unsure how best to go about de-programming.

I think one of most important things I learned is not to start a point I want to get over withe words “ sorry but “

MickHucknall that sounds incredibly tough. I hope you’re looking after yourself.

I think women-only spaces and conversations are the best way for individual women to find their individual voices.

I’ve stopped moving out of the way for men. Fuck it. Why should I? Double points because I have a walking stick so really shouldn’t have to be scuttling out of some entitles bastard’s way.

Mick

The most important thing I have ever learned is that NO is a complete sentence. It does not require explanation or justification (and stopping yourself doing that to be "nice" is really hard).

Oh wasn’t getting at you mick
What a horrible man he sounds
💪🍺💐💐

I've seen so many calls for women to be kind but none of the people unpack what they mean by that. And I've yet to see them call upon men to be kind.

When commenters are calling for kindness to be compelled, and accepted as women's default position, there is no virtue associated with it - it's entitlement to women's lack of self-compassion, and even nudging us towards a position where we're expected to embrace self-harm for the notional gain of others - people who feel entitled to that sacrifice.

for Mick.

The older I get the more I think that all girls should be taught by nuns, who don't give a fuck about men's opinions In the absence of nuns, TERFs would be a good substitute.

Kindness in itself is not a weakness. In itself it is a good thing.

What is wrong is thinking that it is acceptable to allow yourself to be hurt as a result. By being kind to the point of self harm You are essentially saying your self worth is less than someone else’s. And I think women are trained to believe that.

Kind isn’t the same as stupid. ...I suspect that came from mother.

Short term kindness may also be long term neglect - Giving kids whatever they ask for for example. Or enabling men to be selfish entitled and lacking the human understanding that is needed to build a strong and satisfying relationships.

Perhaps there is some merit to the phrase “being cruel to be kind”. Be more aware. Think will this short term kindness do long term harm?

Radical feminism - reading and hearing other women speak out without trying to be as inoffensive as possible - is good de-programming. But it can be very ingrained in us so it's good to think about this issue specifically. Radfems can also be way too nice when it's not deserved, after all it's how we were raised to be as girls.

I looked up pathological altruism: Oakley defines pathological altruism as "altruism in which attempts to promote the welfare of others instead result in unanticipated harm."

That's interesting. However, in the case of people (particularly women) in abusive relationships, it feels like they are by default expected to behave in a way that preserves the reputation and self-image of one party despite the genuine, visible, physical and social harm to themselves.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathological_Altruism

I've seen this referred to elsewhere as pathological altruism.

I like that description. For me, the solution was actually reading books by hardline libertarians and individualists. I don't agree with everything they say, but the notion that someone could unapologetically say that it's okay to put yourself and your own needs and wellbeing first was revolutionary for me.

I had a combination of horrifically low self-esteem and an 'always put others before yourself' attitude, along with the idea that it was unforgivable not to 'be nice' and please others. Now I'm a lot more balanced, I think.

Practically, the first thing I started doing was not moving over and walking in the road when groups of people (usually men) were walking alongside each other in the opposite direction and taking up the entire pavement. Such a small thing, but I really had to tell myself that I deserved to take up space in the world just as much as they did.

Its so subconsciously ingrained. I was watching a reception class lining up in the playground and noticed a number of boys walk to the front or push in where they wanted, and the girls who were displaced just silently got out of their way without protest. The staff didn't even see it, never mind challenge it. Already there, at four years old.

I had a combination of horrifically low self-esteem and an 'always put others before yourself' attitude, along with the idea that it was unforgivable not to 'be nice' and please others.

I was brought up to believe that I shouldn't have any self-esteem (Pride as a sin and self-esteem was conflated with it). And I was taught that as a girl/woman it was my moral duty to put others before myself to the point that it was a moral offence if I failed to do this.

I notice this so much in dramatisations. I find myself being annoyed over depictions that are staged to show the woman/female partner as demanding and unreasonable - but merely show her failing to conform to the unreasonable things that are implicitly demanded of her.

Juells - maybe nuns from the Pussy Church?

I would love to see this exist.

And some key relevant points from Valentine's wonderful stickied post on the relationships board:

Every person deserves to have a relationship where they are treated with respect, love and equality. (Even the ones with XX chromosomes)

There is never an excuse for verbal, physical or financial abuse.

If your partner treats you like shit, it is their fault. It is not because of something you have done.

You can't change an abusive man by being 'better' or sticking by him where others haven't, or by changing yourself.

Most people have happy relationships, where disagreements happen and are resolved without resorting to shouting, name calling or violence or screwing someone else.

Most people's partners are happy for them to pursue their own friendships and interests, work and education, have access to money, make decisions.

Nobody should live their life in fear of angering their partner, or skirting round issues that might upset him. Or put up with cheating and lying for fear of rocking the boat.

If you have been in more than one abusive relationship, (or get easily sucked in by ideological narrative on why your feelings and rights should be subordinate to you taking care of the needs of someone with a penis)seek some counselling, you may be co-dependant, or you may be modelling relationships on a warped template, perhaps from childhood.

There is never a reason to stay with an abusive man. He won't kill himself if you leave him (or refuse to agree with him, or attend meetings to discuss the law), and yes, people will believe you.

I'll add one more to that: possession of a penis and identity politics is not an excuse to avoid taking responsibility for oneself and one's behaviour. Possession of a vagina is not a designated responsibility to carry the responsibility of anyone who tries to hand it to you.

Following.

Great idea for a thread arran

Here to learn

I think it is definitely worth remembering that sometimes 'kind' means putting a wounded animal down. It's not at all a cosy, wimpy, weak thing to do. It is a strength when properly applied. So if someone is attempting to coerce you into something that will require quiet compliance and they are using the term 'kind' to indicate that compliance, it's probably helpful to have an image of a deathly wounded pigeon that needs to be swiftly mercy killed in your head.

Also, that phrase that came up in the Rachel McKinnon is a homophobic creep thread 'cope with' - coping is never optimum. Coping is just getting by, and to tell someone they will 'cope' is often hugely dismissive and uncompassionate. Sometimes we have to cope, that is just life. But it shouldn't be a default life position.

And finally, one thing I am really trying to absorb is that if I wouldn't accept that something was a good thing if it happened to a female friend, then I shouldn't acquiesce to it happening to me.

Oh yes.
I am heading towards 50 and I am STILL learning how to do this.