Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

Beryl is a function of modern patriarchy. She is the hand maiden.

Wow that is some insight.

I don't agree that it's much to do with self worth/upbringing. I wasn't really given the idea that I was capable or that I shouldn't bend over backwards for everyone else. In fact exactly the opposite!
My mum is Beryl squared. Buy my Nan wasn't, or my grandma actually, so there might be a genetic component.
OR I saw my mums resentment and unhappiness and thought "fuck no".
Now I'm fighting against bring Beryled by my son with his pubescent sense of entitlement!

I don't agree that it's much to do with self worth/upbringing

In your case, or in anyone's case?

For me the struggle has always been how to relate to women who're attempting to force me and/or other women to develop one.

I also find this and wonder if my Beryl runs away rather than face up to it. But then I read this...

Beryl is a function of modern patriarchy. She is the hand maiden.

... which is incredibly insightful and makes me think all over again!

I think people don't appreciate how much their 'self-reliance' and 'self-worth' are enabled by the benefit of someone else's Beryl.

I think people don't appreciate how much their 'self-reliance' and 'self-worth' are enabled by the benefit of someone else's Beryl.

Exactly.

I attract women as well as men who lean too heavily and benefit greatly from me swallowing my own needs for them. I have even been in the infuriating situation (in the past though- i've improved quite a bit) where one person complains that I give too much to others, then set about hogging all my supportiveness to themselves.

I think people don't appreciate how much their 'self-reliance' and 'self-worth' are enabled by the benefit of someone else's Beryl.

Until it is stopped or removed. Then it's the fault of the provider for stopping in personal experience and there is a void of expectation and entitlement that's very hard not to pander to, in order to get back into Beryl's skin.

@IfNotNowThenWooOoOoo - that's where I've had most success with my son, by using the question - why is your comfort/ entitlement etc more important than mine?

Very few people can answer that!!!

I would love to learn to apply my supportiveness to myself.

Pointing the finger at someone and chiding them for having a Beryl is probably not going to be the most helpful/effective technique in deprogramming. Just a hunch.

Beryl is a function of modern patriarchy. She is the hand maiden.

I think people don't appreciate how much their 'self-reliance' and 'self-worth' are enabled by the benefit of someone else's Beryl.

This x so much! And their social reputation as e.g., a good father, a good husband, a good provider a good [X]. Even when the definition of a good father can be as low as, "looks after his own children for an evening while the mother is elsewhere" or a good husband can be scraping by with no positive actions but, "he doesn't beat you and doesn't get bladdered every night of the week" (yes, I've met people whose bars are that low).

What would the reaction be if a you had a friend whom everybody knew to be in a good marriage, and proof that solid lasting relationships exist and then she said: "Actually, he's a chronic liar about everything. You never know what's going to be uncovered next. He's used coercive control and deceived me to the point where our finances will never recover and retirement is an impossibility.
He's Mr People Pleaser out of the house but creates chaos within.
He's never once even attempted to resolve his own messes."

I think some would react with sympathy. I think others would also but might have a flash where consider the woman disloyal and that she had no right to harm his social reputation like that. Or, "But that's just how it is".

Well I have no way of knowing about everyone, so yes in my case. And when you say that self worth in upbringing is a factor presumably you mean in your case?

Bloody hell, I love this thread - I love you all

More about breastfeeding? anyone? @Neurotrashwarrior?

My Beryl is massively influential in relationships but she can't actually make it seem fair. She makes it seem like this is what I have to do but can't make me internalise it fully so I become filled with rage and resentment over time. I end up in a lose/lose situation where I am serving a man, not having the time, energy or headspace to do what I want, but not being sweet and loving enough to be properly loved either.

Beryl is also a problem at work, differently inflected similar issues. The basic thing that is at the heart of both situations is that I know I will lose my place - be left or kicked out - unless I fully submit; but the fully submitted me has lost so much of what makes me of value in work or relationships. So I end up both hollowed out, and utterly unappreciated and generally a waste of space.

It's true that if you don't obey Beryl, people don't like it, too. It's risky to kick your Beryl out and you may well lose your man or your job when you make a change like that. the gamble is that you can find a better life with people (not necessarily a lover, but we all need friends and a livelihood) who like you without your Beryl. Assuming that's true, it's still going to be a tricky transition.

I have been single for over 2 years (with lots of fun and FWBs in that time) and have just met someone nice who seems to be positioning himself to be a boyfriend. I was subconsciously considering going for it I think till I faced all this head on. I have barely started deprogramming myself from being in relationships with men since I was 17. I need to stop this thing before it's too late and I'm in it again.

It makes sense for self-worth and Beryl to skip a generation. Parents who put themselves first and their kids last or even no-where in the priority list when decision-making, have children with low self-worth.

People who have low self-worth owing to such parenting feel they would never want their kids to go through that and become Beryl squared as a reaction to this childhood neglect. This over-compensating Beryl means their children think nothing of putting their own needs first and think self-centred grandma was the bees knees and mum was just a down-trodden mug.

Wow arranfan so much of your post resonated there! I have seen relationships like the one you described (outwardly great but the man is a lying, manipulative arsehole) and been so annoyed I didn't spot what was happening until the shit hit the fan. It's sobering how good some men are at creating a situation like that.

when you say that self worth in upbringing is a factor presumably you mean in your case?

You see it in all sorts of people. I am thinking of someone who was repeatedly abducted by her dad and taken to Turkey, and her mum kept abducting her and bringing her back. There was no thought about her needs and well-being in this - she was being treated as a possession. She is a beautiful, intelligent and talented woman, but her self-worth is absolutely destroyed - much to the bemusement of others who see her obvious worth staring them in the face.

Soz that was to likeDust
Fast thread!

I see what yr saying

Lass yep I tell him every year. But I don't feel I should tell him even. Sending cards is off his radar.

It can't be ignored that people aren't very happy about women being outspoken and assertive.
We have learned to be nicey-nice and shut up for a reason.

Gah stoopid phone.
I see what yr saying Dust about the family dynamics that could cause a Beryl, or a non-Beryl BUT in my own family I really don't see that.
Neither of my grandmothers were selfish at all. They were warm, kind and caring but both worked and both made sure they had what they needed in a very basic sense.
I don't think my mum was neglected but I know my grandma has to work full time.
I would find it quite mysoginistic to assume that a mum working full time and bringing home the bacon is neglect.
I think my mum dies have low self esteem but that's more to do with having an absent father probably. So, yes, family dynamics can cause it but it's not always the mothers fault.
I also agree that many "self sufficient " types couldn't function without Beryl.

The posts about the free counselling being taken for granted by the men from the past made me think that even when you haven't necessarily been in the relationship with them (or not for a long time), some men still feel entitled to wife work and emotional labour.

Why is the less violent gender the one learning all the emotional self regulation?
Because women are expected to regulate the emotions of men as well as themselves. They have to sharpen their emotional regulation skillz because they’ll be regulating for two even when they’re not pregnant. This has been a thing that’s starting to get noticed in feminist circles; the concept of unpaid emotional labor that women are expected to supply. This takes many forms (and I’ve written about this before) and at its most benign looks like listening, support and empathy. However, as it becomes more noxious, women are expected to read the emotions men and proactively protect them from their own negative emotions.

medium.com/@emmalindsay/men-dump-their-anger-into-women-d5b641fa37bc

Good set of comments about emotional labour (which includes being the one to schedule the social and family calendars; write the cards that are our social grease for connections etc.):

I want a wife who will take care of the details of my social life. When my wife and I are invited out by my friends, I want a wife who will take care of the baby-sitting arrangements. When I meet people at school that I like and want to entertain, I want a wife who will have the house clean, will prepare a special meal, serve it to me and my friends, and not interrupt when I talk about things that interest me and my friends. I want a wife who will have arranged that the children are fed and ready for bed before my guests arrive so that the children do not bother us. I want a wife who takes care of the needs of my guests so that they feel comfortable, who makes sure that they have an ashtray, that they are passed the hors d'oeuvres, that they are offered a second helping of the food, that their wine glasses are replenished when necessary, that their coffee is served to them as they like it. And I want a wife who knows that sometimes I need a night out by myself.

www.metafilter.com/151267/Wheres-My-Cut-On-Unpaid-Emotional-Labor

I would find it quite mysoginistic to assume that a mum working full time and bringing home the bacon is neglect.

So would I. The father who was absent is entirely negligent. It meant your grandma had to do the impossible job of two parents.

I suppose the key thing is why is it so gendered?

There are men who are ridiculously self-sacrificing and attentive to others, but they are rare as hen's teeth and often grew up 'replacing' their mother - eg- were bereaved of their mother or their mum had severe depression or a disability and had difficulty functioning day to day.

But Beryl the handmaiden is more widespread amongst women and she clearly is the other side of the same coin as male entitlement.

@YeahCorvid

I, too, would like to talk about Beryl and breastfeeding. She’s not just ‘oh the man feels left out’ but also ‘you’re doing it for you, not the baby’ (which is a weird concept with bfing).