Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

[arranfan]

Vipers - start writing.

I'm more convinced than ever that we need A Mumsnet FWR Guide to De-Programming Yourself From Self-Harming Kindness

Helen Saxby says, Women are socialised to be kind so it makes it difficult for us when standing up for our rights is painted as being 'unkind'. We should just feel 'entitled' instead, like men do

I think it goes beyond that to the point where we self-harm or we're implicitly being coerced into causing harm to other women.

De-programming suggestions?

This thread is so timely for me. I have honestly felt for so long I am living someone elses life.

I (real secret me in my head) am pretty much a rockstar to be honest. But the me I live in real time is some insipid people pleaser. Wtf?
I basically have the rage, I want the last few decades back please.

Mine is not Beryl though, Beryl is my much adored and missed grandmother.

Mine is called Myrtle

I basically have the rage, I want the last few decades back please.

It is enraging.

All that energy, thoughtfulness, care, plus the emotional, cognitive, social and financial resources directed towards others and away from assisting ourselves to lead a good quality of life and help others through that. And, by and large, to little avail - some people can accept so much without showing anything for all of that except an increased sense of entitlement and no awareness of the value of what they receive.

Where do you think you would be now in your life if you'd received the care, support, consideration and 'kindness' that you've given to others?

Well that is it, isn't it? I've spent my entire life caring for others and losing out in some capacity.

This past couple of years, I have begun to push back against it all, and in the midst of all the crappy stuff which would have been happening anyway, I've actually embarked on a career which is using many skills I didn't even know I had, and I am being told almost every day how competent and authoritative I am, and although it's hard work, I am discovering that I am actually a useful, worthwhile person who doesn't have to be the very last in line for everything.

I'm not saying work is the panacea or anything, it's just a brilliant barometer for me of what a difference there can be in a life when you aren't assuming that you aren't as important or worthwhile as everyone else.

One aspect of this that I have struggled with is: adapting to different communication styles. I grew up on the east coast USA and moved to the west coast many years ago. Everyone here is much milder and hesitant and PC. I have always tried to be kind, but some people think that speaking directly, asserting boundaries, pointing out sexism, using sarcastic humor, interrupting, etc is rude or unkind. I have been schooled on this,, but to be honest a lot of people find it refreshing if not endearing. I have toned it down ALOT and have learned how to self-censor, but I'm just now thinking of it as self harm. rather than the inverse (not being "kind" has harmed me)
Great conversation as cross cultural issues are certainly part of it

I think women-only spaces and conversations are the best way for individual women to find their individual voices. Agreed. Perhaps most of us have had the experience of being in a group of only women feminists, where consistently one of the topics is examples and discussion of submissiveness vs. genuine empowerment, and then having even one male be allowed to join.

All of a sudden, first one woman and then another start hedging their speech, toning down the outrage at some bit of sexism, in order to spare the man's feelings. The groups ALWAYS lose their potency and focus, cos now we have to "remember the men, dear, they have needs too". And pretty soon it's all about the men and "women can be awful too" and then some women feel the need to burn those exampled women at the stake, in order to "balance out" their former rage at men being sexist.

But the two demographics aren't equal, or treated equally, that's the whole point, that it's okay to angry at systematic discrimination. Women do not find that voice very often outside woman-only space. And patriarchy knows this, that's why some men are always trying to intrude.

This is very interesting reading for me, and - apologies in advance if this comes across as smug or self satisfied, it’s not my intention - I really don’t recognise this pathological altruism or finding the notion of individualism revolutionary, or consistently putting myself last, in myself. It’s never occurred to me NOT to be individualistic and pursue my own interests before considering anyone else. I do genuinely wonder how I seem to have bypassed something that’s so widespread? To give examples, I consistently defied my parents when they tried to advise me on which school topics to take (people telling me what to do has always made me want to do the opposite just to make a point, childish I know), didn’t listen when they told me it might not be wise to move to a different city with no job, I did it anyway and secured a job within a week, when I was self employed I always said no to sharing my contacts because I didn’t want to create competition for myself, I have no qualms in telling my current (male and useless) boss when I disagree with him, I was elbowed in the street by a man the other day and was so incensed I ran after him and shouted at him to tell him what a rude and aggressive c*nt he was. I would find it a real effort to be a submissive people pleaser, it just isn’t in my nature and never has been.

That said, I do have a bad track record of not walking away from bad men (never physically abusive, but certainly emotionally in some cases and liars). But even in those situations I always voiced everything I was unhappy with, I feel like I hung on in there too long because I was hoping they’d take on board how their behaviour upset me and change it. They didn’t. I feel that’s possibly a self esteem issue, that dumping them meant I had to accept I wasn’t “good enough” for them to change for. I also find my (female) housemate quite domineering and often just resignedly agree with her to keep the peace because I don’t want a confrontation, and that really annoys me because it makes me feel weak. But that is pretty much the only example I can think of. I find it genuinely surprising how many women feel socialised to put themselves last

I would also add that I’ve always found it much, much harder to stand up to or disagree with other women than I have men. I’m really wondering after reading this where I got these traits from

ArkeNOTen Measuring your self worth by how "kind" you are to others, usually ends up being "how much you self sacrifice". Maybe try to find some other quality to measure your self worth?

Okay just slightly joking here but I've always measured my own self worth by... how nice I am to MEEEEE. Sometimes in retrospect I would wind up being too selfish, it's hard to find the right balance at first but this question helped "did I get my needs met without riding roughshod over anybody else?"

That question puts me at #1 but it's a reminder that other people matter too and inadvertently hurting or harming others isn't on.

EXCELLENT thread topic btw arranfan!

oh. The reason I decided to put myself at #1 was because growing up my family was very abusive and according to them, I was #99 and it was killing me. it was either fight the toxicity which was destroying my soul (or whatever you want to call the thing which makes you "you") or die (by suicide), or just shatter into what felt like irreversible insanity.

Putting myself at #98 wouldn't have helped, nor any of the other numbers. If that makes sense. Can you tell I feel a bit guilty for being #1?

Where do you think you would be now in your life if you'd received the care, support, consideration and 'kindness' that you've given to others?

I am finding this impossible to imagine. It's too much of a leap. I'd have made totally different choices.

Since, on the internet, no-one knows you're a dog....

On MN, what is the correct etiquette, when you suspect that posters who imply themselves to be female... are projecting and acting out as typical males, unmistakeably so!!!

(Clutches pearls, collapses gracefully on to nearest fainting couch, demands more gin.).

Yes I know what you mean.

I've been thinking of the different reactions males and females have to trauma and stress- (nature/nurture?) where males tend to aggressively lash out and women tend to self harm. For example, male prisons are full of violent men, women's prisons are full of non-violent self harmers (bar a few exceptions on both sides).

With all the 'boys will be boys' allowances made for blokes being obnoxious and difficult and the much higher standards for girls, I wonder how much of the self-sacrificing instincts of Beryl are through direct socialisation and how much are actually an indirect 'feminine' reaction to trauma and stress.

I think I must have have accidentally suffocated Beryl in her sleep as a child because I wish I was less of a selfish bitch!
I mean I'm helpful to people to a point, and I do care, but I'm not subsumed (is that the right word? ) by others needs particularly.
And I'm seen- by men at any rate-as HUGELY opinionated and feisty, which I didn't realise for years. So I'm not kind particularly, but I do stick up for people if they need me to.
RE nuns-I once visited an old nunnery and was reading about their lives. It occurred to me that in medieval times, the smart women would become nuns. When your choices were belong to a man and die in child birth or read books and do gardening, it seems a no brainer!

IfNotNow I feel the same. I am selfish, I always have been, I’m fine with it, I don’t care if people don’t like me. I try to be an honest person, I am loyal and will help out and make effort with friends, but equally if u don’t feel I get it back I stop bothering. All throughout my life I’ve been told my foremost trait is being honest and to the point, some have called me rude and intimidating. This was mainly in early adulthood, I was bullied at school which did affect my self esteem but thinking about it, I think it went a long way to making me how I am. I saw the worst of people, I learned that everyone will stab you in the back, no one can be trusted to help you or have your back. So I’m very cynical about humanity as a whole but I’m proud of sticking to my guns and standing up for myself and what I believe in, both in personal and professional relationships. I’m not unpleasant or offensive, but I don’t bend over backwards for anyone. The question earlier about what different choices would you have made if you’d been shown the compassion and kindness you’ve given to others really resonated because honestly I don’t think I’ve ever given that out in great quantities to anyone

Personally. I think all of us women have been raised with our own personal Beryl, since the day we were born and correctly observed to be female. Beryl has been imposed on us by society since that day.

Yeah, I'm still working on ditching my own personal Beryl, and still currently taking steps!

The one about walking in straight lines when out and about, and not dodging around men, not stepping off the pavement into the road because men are taking up all the pavement, not moving aside for men. Yes! Finding it fascinating!

We actually had a discussion once where DH claimed he couldn't tell the dirty from the clean laundry baskets (we have both, the latter is for washed but as yet unsorted laundry). He did this with a straight face - this is why he couldn't help with the laundry (or even get dirty clothes in the basket), and I got so far as saying I'd MAKE A BLOODY SIGN for the laundry baskets before I checked myself. FFS. DH has a PhD but apparently can't tell clean from dirty laundry? Bloody Beryl. What the hell was wrong with me?!

I don't understand how women allow this sort of situation to arise. You married an intelligent, presumably fully functioning adult so why put up with his behaving like a child.I have never in over 30 years done any of my husband's laundry or ironed a shirt. Why should I ? He did it before he met me. I am fussy about temperature and spin cycles for my clothes so I do my own.

Christmas is approaching and there will be the usual martyred complaints from posters about having to do everything. I have never bought a birthday or Christmas present or card for any of his family . I don't expect him to do so for my friends and family and what he does for his family is up to him.

So far as bringing up our son there wasn't even a discussion that this would be anything other than shared equally.

What is being described here does not resonate with my experience

Lass, perhaps you had a good equal upbringing without any abuse?

Whereas I think a few of us here, did suffer abuse in our childhood or youth, due to us being female, and it takes a while to get over it.

So well done you, lass! For not having being sexually assaulted, repeatedly while you were young! Well done you!
Some of us were not so lucky.

If I am wrong, and you were abused for being female when you were young, then I'd ask how you got over it to become the poster you currently represent!

None of that seems particularly relevant to explain a poster's husband becomes incapable of doing the laundry after getting married.

It makes all the difference.

If you got brought up to be the one who had to do the cooking for dad and brothers, and to clean the house and do the laundry and ironing for the men in the household, because they were men and I was a girl.

I didn’t grow up with a Beryl role model, a father and grandfather who were my role models. Interestingly they probably had their own Beryl’s.

I got to 29, before the patriarchy put me back in my place. The moment I became a mother my career was over.

I can see I am expected to have a Beryl. My eldest has a Beryl and I tell her off for it. My ds acts like he deserves everything, my youngest dd copies him, so I don’t think it’s bad for anyone to put themselves first.

Teach our daughters to be assertive.

I volunteered to help out on an open day, I asked a male teacher to get me a cup of tea and a bacon sandwich. He obliged, the rest of the male staff were gobsmacked. I was busy setting up a display and felt I deserved one, and he did ask if I needed any help. They told me I’d been there 5 minutes and already telling people what to do. I told the headmaster I expect my husband to bring me a cup of tea every morning as a way of saying thank you for having to do his laundry. My husband probably earns more than he did (as I did once). I’m support staff and no seniority at all, however I have zero problem in looking big blokes with big salaries in the eye and speaking as an equal.

It does help being tall.

I used to volunteer at a bf support group. The amount of Beryl’s Who put their men before their baby and establishing breastfeeding was heartbreaking. Women crying because they can’t please their men and their baby. :(

Couple of musings from me after catching up with the thread:

1. The whole self sacrifice thing was a sort of stealth indoctrination for me. Gender expectations growing up as a child that I was a "good girl" for doing chores around the house. So feeding off that praise as a way to gain love and then once that chore became an expectation, I needed to add another to gain more praise and affirmation. And if I stopped doing something that then became expected it turned into a negative experience for me.

My brother never had these expectations or need for this kind of affection through praise.

Luckily he grew up with more open eyes to equality somehow.

1. An almost addiction to the martyrdom of it. Enjoying watching others enjoy the fruits of your labour, gaining pleasure from putting others before you.

So indoctrinated that the thought of putting ones self first becomes something completely alien and uncomfortable to me, and the others.

I used to volunteer at a bf support group. The amount of Beryl’s Who put their men before their baby and establishing breastfeeding was heartbreaking. Women crying because they can’t please their men and their baby.

^^^ This!

I see it every week - it’s incredibly common. Women torn between being kind to their DH or mum or MIL, and doing the thing they’ve chosen to do for their baby.

Following with great interest.

I've tried so hard to not socialise my daughter like this but I feel like I'm still fucking up. A few months ago it was my toddler DD's birthday. Towards the end of the party a few of our closest friends were still around with their little boys. My daughter started opening all of her presents and two boys also started tearing into them. DD was happy regardless so I didn't say anything because I didn't want to look like I was being an awkward spoil sport I did talk to her later and said that I shouldn't of let them and I was sorry. She wasn't arsed but I still feel terrible about it. Up until that point I thought I was doing a good job not teaching her all the fucking horrible gender role stuff. I'm not trying to escape the blame, I know ultimately it was up to me to stop it, but in my group of friends we all discipline each others children and none of us stopped it when I was thinking about it afterwards I know quite a few little girls who I think would happily share the joy of ripping open presents with there friends but I don't think any of the little boys I know would.

I spent all my early 20s lost and confused - like most people - but when I was musing about life I always came to the conclusion that as long as I was a kind person that was all that mattered this mantra has not served me well so far. Thanks Beryl!

I read these threads and think I must be the most selfish person in the world :( Not the vaguest shadow of a Beryl has ever figured in my life.