Peak GC Moment?

[CantUnderstandNoThing]

I've namechanged for this because I'm a bit nervous of the vitriol I have seen directed at others with a differing opinion.

I know there's been a few threads with people sharing the moments they hit "peak trans", often citing individuals (Karen, Lily etc) or moments that led them to their GC beliefs.

I've realised I've hit peak GC, or perhaps peak t--f would be more appropriate, and I was wondering if anyone else has? For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful. I realised I didn't want to be aligned with that.

The issues of violence towards women, safe spaces and the issues in women's sport are obviously very important and absolutely need discussion but the current angle of "women don't have penises" isn't helping that at all (imo obviously).

Anyone else feel the same? Or starting to feel the same?

Spelling all over the shop. It's hard to catch them on my phone.

Whether someone has the sense they fit in their body or not tells you nothing about what sex they are. That's an external fact. That's what laws and protections should be based in, especially as you cannot even begin to describe what you are talking about.

I'm sure what trans people feel is very real.

Now, it must be separated between people who feel their body is wrong and people who prefer the stereotypes of the other sex. And, quite frankly, it often seems more about clothes, image and behaviour, than actually feeling the wrong sex.

Transgenderism is the biggest reinforcer of gender stereotypes there is.

This.

And yet one of the questions in the GRA was about living in the acquired gender.

If it is impossible to actually define what this means, how can it be used as the basis for a change in the law? We are back to subjective versus objective.

I can't experience what it is like to have dysphoria any more than someone born male can experience what it is like to grow up female.

I know what sex I am because of the physical & biological characteristics I have, nothing more, nothing less.

The way I feel about myself is my personality.
The way I feel about being female is the result of socialisation (and discrimination).
I don't have a gender identity - I am agender.

The definition of a women isnt a male human who feels an innate discomfort in their own body. A woman is an adult human female.

Women and girls need and want sex segregated spaces for their safety and dignity.

I question the motivation of people who want to abolish sex segregation.

MrsCupCake91 Me not sharing an innate feeling of gender, doesn't mean I don't believe what other people experience is real. I just don't think it makes them in the same subcategory of human as me, which is based on reproductive systems.

It only means, I don't feel the same. It doesn't mean their feelings are irrelevant or disregarded in any way.

All of us are human, we all have unique experiences. We are also split into subgroups based on our biological reproductive function.

Those groups are never going to be interchangeable. Even if other science reveals other connecting factors between women and transwomen. Transwomen are still going to be under the male reproductive system group.

No I have no issue with trans kids being treated by medical professionals who have been studying this area for decades, and have actual qualifications. I trust them, and to suggest that there’s some sort of weird push by parents and docs to make their kids change is, quite honestly, ridiculous.

If someone feels an innate discomfort in their body, and a sense they are a woman

That is gender dysphoria, which I presume your relative has had treatment to alleviate. What I would like to know is how that treatment makes her literally a female as you are claiming?

Bring able to change every chromosome in the body is not just ‘future possible.’ It’s magic. We have more chance of uploading a mind into a new body than doing that.

A feeling is real to that person. How they feel is real to them. It’s illogical, because when you ask ‘what does it mean to feel like s woman?’ You end up with the stereotype list again.

Being and feeling are not the same. Feeling does not shape biological reality. One cannot feel ones way out of cancer, or endometriosis. Or a broken leg.

There is an objective reality. Because we are sentient and complex creatures sometimes our feeling are at odds with it. People can feel the world is against them, or have a deep rooted belief in a god or gods, or their absence. People can believe all manner of things. Reality? Reality doesn’t give a hoot for my feelings or anyone else’s. Harsh? Yes. I’m sure my friend who has early onset colon cancer would love to feel her way out of it. But she can’t and she’s going to die soon and that is awful. But it’s reality.

Again this climate of identity politics, of opinion being as important as fact. Feelings are just that - they’re important to the people holding them but they don’t change reality.

WhirlwindHugs the point is that saying 'I agree with Trump on this one issue' is in no way endorsing anything else that Trump does or says, his attitudes or values in general.

The equivalent isn't joining the National Front to protest PIE. It's saying that you share the National Front's opinion on PIE. That doesn't mean that you agree with all (or any) of their other stances.

Similarly, leaving Labour over this issue doesn't mean supporting the Tories instead.

Thank you for at least listening, even if you disagree. Will leave this conversation as I’ve got the things off my chest I wanted to say. I want women’s spaces to be safe just as much as anyone else, but I do think the way trans people have been singled out en mass is totally disproportionate, and very unfair. Thank you for listening 🌻

Well, this thread has wildly veered off topic into an oh so rare chance for a Genderist to come along and rehearse all the usual crap about lady feelings trumping reality and safety and rights and shit, and now appears to be fine and dandy with medical experiments on troubled kids, so I'm going to go and do something more productive instead of arguing with cultish fuckwittery.

I wish the rest of you the best, and also wish that Genderists would be thwarted at every turn.

Then give me a definitive description of why you feel right as a woman, and what makes it so - which all other women will agree on. Our language is so rich!

I don't 'feel' anything, I simply am a woman because of my biology. I don't have a gender identity. I've never experienced an innate sense of gender - I've always experienced gender as oppressive. I accept that other people experience some sort of feeling which they describe that way, but I disagree that it is what makes someone a man or a woman - because in that case, I'm neither. Which would be nonsensical.

I do not feel like a woman.
I am a woman. My sexed, physical body is that of a woman. Thus I am a woman.

I know enough women to know that there is no one set of feelings, likes, dislikes, ‘looks’ or presentations that make one ‘feel’ like s woman. A woman is a woman whether she’s shaven headed and working on an oil rig or a princess in a ball gown. The only thing that unites us, across time, class, culture, race, religion - is our physical biology.

I'm not begging anyone to be nice. I'm just questioning how I feel. I do wish people would stop putting words in my mouth

I’m sorry, I didn’t think I was putting words in your mouth. I was reflecting on your OP, which seemed to be saying that although you do think that the safety and dignity of women and children is important, you wanted these rights to be protected BUT without making anyone else uncomfortable.

And you are now conflicted because it seems that you will have to take sides in this debate. Because you can’t agree with everyone when they want opposite things.

Intellectually you think you should put women and children first, because you are woman yourself and maybe a mother. Perhaps you even considered yourself a feminist. The nice kind of feminist who everyone likes and no one disagree with .

But now you are having to choose. You have spent your whole life conditioned to be nice and budge up and most of all, put men first. Because we all know what happens to girls and women who don’t do as they are told.

So of course you will feel very upset and uncomfortable at watching a woman on TV saying no to a biological man.

Yes, you can call yourself what you like .
Yes you can dress and do your hair and make up how you like.
Yes I understand that you think of yourself as a woman.
No I don’t agree with you.

I can see why that’s very upsetting for you. And you want Posie and women like her to shut up and not have views. Or at least keep themselves, because it’s not nice.

India should be allowed to air her views on national TV. Just not anyone who disagree with her.

So I’m wondering why it’s women who have to be nice and not TRAs. Why was India saying all these offensive things to Posie ?

I felt uncomfortable with her saying to India that she should be able to do everything she's doing as a man, whilst wearing a top with a message that must seem offensive to India. Other posters have said it might be because of this need to be kind or polite to people, and perhaps I'm struggling with that!

I this thread shows neatly how women's opinions on gender are not binary, but are a spectrum.
Which is reassuring in itself.

Thank you for at least listening, even if you disagree
Doesn't seem like there's been much listening on your side.

womanoftime sorry, but 'letting X party in' by not voting for the other biggest party in a realistic choice of 2 is a real issue in most of the US and the UK.

Well, this thread has wildly veered off topic into an oh so rare chance for a Genderist to come along and rehearse all the usual crap about lady feelings trumping reality and safety and rights and shit, and now appears to be fine and dandy with medical experiments on troubled kids

Yes, how astounding. Never heard any of these talking points before.

OP Perhaps it would help if, when you have these feelings of discomfort because you feel Posie was offensive and discriminatory, you read some of the TAs statements e.g. "die in a fire", "enjoy your erasure", "suck my lady dick" etc. etc.

Then ask yourself: have you ever seen statements from TAs saying they feel uncomfortable or find it offensive and discriminatory when transwomen say such things about women? (I am not talking here about transexuals as they were originally known or transwomen like Miranda Yardley who understand that you cannot change sex), but specifically the new breed of trans activists, of which India is one.

Anything Posie has said, which is never less than the truth, pales into insignificance compared to the bread and butter language of TAs.

No, of course you don't want to descend to their level, but I really don't think you should be concerned about Posie's attitude. Don't let them manipulate your female social conditioning. Also, don't forget India was the one on Woman's Hour who sneered at women who don't shave their legs but said it was ok for men not to. Pretty offensive and discriminatory that.

that what trans people experience is very real

They may well do. I believe gender dysphoria exists as a psychological condition. It doesn't mean people are the opposite sex.

Ereshkigal, yes, this is the disconnect. I just don't understand why it has traction.

I don't disbelieve that some men sincerely believe and feel they are women. I just don't understand why anyone thinks that actually makes them a woman.

I know enough women to know that there is no one set of feelings, likes, dislikes, ‘looks’ or presentations that make one ‘feel’ like a woman. A woman is a woman whether she’s shaven headed and working on an oil rig or a princess in a ball gown. The only thing that unites us, across time, class, culture, race, religion - is our physical biology.

Perfectly put bowl, the only reason i know I'm a woman is because of my biology. The word 'woman' describes biology, describes one half of the population of a sexually dimorphic species. The half that produces eggs, not sperm. Women want to retain that meaning, because it's important because women are oppressed and discriminated against because of our biology.

Biology matters.

I have to say I find it rather mind boggling that people who are so keen to reject science, what scientists say, and deny scientific reality (you cant change sex) are also so keen to claim that scientifically impossible things will suddenly become possible in the future, 'because science' like changing all the chromosomes in someone's body or uterus transplants into men.