Peak GC Moment?

[CantUnderstandNoThing]

I've namechanged for this because I'm a bit nervous of the vitriol I have seen directed at others with a differing opinion.

I know there's been a few threads with people sharing the moments they hit "peak trans", often citing individuals (Karen, Lily etc) or moments that led them to their GC beliefs.

I've realised I've hit peak GC, or perhaps peak t--f would be more appropriate, and I was wondering if anyone else has? For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful. I realised I didn't want to be aligned with that.

The issues of violence towards women, safe spaces and the issues in women's sport are obviously very important and absolutely need discussion but the current angle of "women don't have penises" isn't helping that at all (imo obviously).

Anyone else feel the same? Or starting to feel the same?

meh

if you don't like what Posie Parker is saying, ignore her

There's lots of other people making BC arguments:

Nic Williams
Kathleen Stock
Rosa Freedman
Hadley Freeman
Graham Linnehan
James Kirkup
Ruth Serwotka

or one of the many, many other interesting people who make interesting and valid arguments on this

We have a few concerns about this one so we're taking it down whilst we have a look behind the scenes.
[edited to add - thread reinstated]

That interview made me uncomfortable as it was very skewed. Instead of discussing the problems with self-ID and penises in women’s spaces, it was deliberately framed to look like Posie was being horrible to India. India had also stated previously that self -ID wasn’t good, so the position taken when Posie was there was disingenuous or worse.

Yes, I felt uncomfortable. I felt someone new to the topic might just see PP as unkind. However I agree with what she’s saying. Men can’t become women, no matter how strongly the feel. So I grew some ovaries and continued to support her, despite my mild discomfort.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm clear on my views Nuffaluff - I'm pretty much saying the direct opposite, that I'm confused and uncomfortable with my views and that they are starting to change.

I sort of understand what you are saying. For women like me, who are always 'oh I could never hurt anyone's feelings' 'we must be kind and nice', Posie is the one taking it on the chin for us. She has had so much shit thrown at her, that you have to admire her determination.

I thought I did not agree with her on a lot of things, but then read the little bio thing, and found that we actually had loads in common. Except she will go out there and fight, I am more of a supporter than a fighter, although I am GC at work, I have hounded my MP with emails (even though she doesn't seem to give a shit). Posie is the one who speaks for all of us, and yes 'bloody women do not have a penis' is the start and end point for me. Transwomen are Transwomen, and should be able to live however the hell they want, until they want my spaces, my name or my right to talk about my body and experiences of being a woman. Then they can fuck right off.

Something I am more concerned about is the effect all this will have on trans kids. I am sure they really do believe that they can change sex because that is the lie they have been fed by every adult and person in authority.

Absolutely this. The future these poor children are facing is horrific.

I personally couldn't have said what P9sie said to India's face (although I 100% agree with her) because I'm conditioned as a woman to be nice to people to the detriment of my own self interest.

And I don't want to have to have this ridiculous battle on my hands. I'm astounded it has come to this. Another struggle for women's rights. FFS.

Women are discriminated against because of our unique biology not our gender identity.

Really @MyGhoulMumsnet ? I've been a member for over 10 years. This is ridiculous.

For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful.

What was hateful about that interview was a man telling a woman she wasn't entitled to define her own boundaries. Now that was offensive.

The thread’s been reinstated very quickly OP - clearly they’re not doubting you, so don’t worry.

I think the use of the internet exagerates the divide. It means that there is always something to be offended at. Whether that is a GC woman casting doubt on a TRA having PTSD as opposed to just being a bit sulky, or a TRA trying to get a GC woman fired, this is unfolding in real time, with fresh drama available from hour to hour for any who want to join a dogpile. This debate is incredibly tribal.

That said, I see a lot of misogyny on the TRA side with comments of "fuck off Terfs" and "see the manager" haircuts rife. On the other side, I do not see any GC women trying to get people fired, or their work blacklisted. I do not see any GC death threats, or rape threats, or threats of violence. I have never seen a GC woman actually post "fuck off", though I'm sure its probably happened. I don't see any homophobia from the GC crowd, or even transphobia - provided you do not think that Women Don't Have Penises is an insult. The worst I see from the GC side is an eagerness (and sometimes over eagerness) to see TRAs slip on banana skins of their own making. I have to be honest, I love a good bit of schadenfreude myself, when the suffering is self inflicted.

I find that Venn Diagram, showing how the views of right wingers, GCs and TRAs intersect to be very useful in showing why we find ourselves with such "strange bedfellows".

Perhaps you’re just feeling discomfort at women not being nice OP? Female socialisation is very hard to budge. Women being angry, disrespectful, unflinching and stern can be very hard to watch. I love PP’s give-no-fucks approach, but I’m old enough to realise that keeping the peace isn’t the only game in town. I think speaking the truth is more important than being nice, not everyone feels the same.

But not every person here believes the same things. You can be concerned about safe-guarding in the context of self-ID, but dislike PP’s version of activism, that’s your choice.

What do you believe the issues of concern? That’s where you want to put your energies.

Came on to say that interview gave me a bit of a wobble but pp put it much better than I could have done
I felt uncomfortable. I felt someone new to the topic might just see PP as unkind. However I agree with what she’s saying. Men can’t become women, no matter how strongly the feel. So I grew some ovaries and continued to support her, despite my mild discomfort.
I felt exactly the same, my wobble was, with hindsight, more frustration at the possible way things would be perceived by people new to the topic.

I didn’t see the interview but I think it’s interestung you object to the GC stance because Posie is GC and you found her to be rude. Is this because women (the real ones with cervixes and vulvas etc) are not supposed to be rude or mouthy or belligerent, even when faced with awful male toxity - and rudeness in spadefuls, to say the least.
Interesting.

I am GC and feel strongly about it. I am also so tired of the debate. I think that in some places, particularly where there is a bit of an echo chamber effect, the tone of the conversation can become unproductive, even when I fully agree with the arguments being put forth. Sometimes when GC people question the high rates of suicide and violence against trans populations, it is done in kind of a sneering tone that makes me wince. I don't like the minimisation of suffering for anyone. I think we need to make sure that the focus always comes back to toxic masculinity and male violence and how this affects anyone who does not present as 'masculine' (women, children, gay men, trans women, goths, what have you) and what we do to safeguard everyone at risk.

I can see how it can happen though. I think the trouble is that it is very difficult to argue your point with people who give every appearance of giving not one single shit about your own rights and safety, and show no willingness to discuss and negotiate a complex social and legal problem, without the rage and frustration getting on top of you and causing you to sink to a similar level of discourse.

Crickey was that the interview where eamonn Holmes stated that a woman should not be able to say no to a person with a penis putting their fingers inside their vagina. Posie was the least of my worries I must say.

@Saffkat Every "what was your peak trans moment" thread where has some people saying individual people, or events? Not sure how my "moment" being the interview is any different. Of course it's not only about PP.

Look, I'm either doing a really bad job at explaining myself (again - likely!) or it's just not ok to question this here.

That stupid little cunt Ben Shapiro doesn't think humans can change sex either.

Does that mean I'm going to start thinking that men can become women, that males should have access to female spaces, or that children should be given fuck knows what so that they can 'transition'? Just so I'm not aligned with BS on anything? No, no I'm not.

Interesting that the 'offensive' thing you took from that This Morning interview was Posie Parker not being kind enough to IW, and not Eammon Holmes alluding to it being OK for a man to intimately search a woman if that man identifies as a woman.

I'm either doing a really bad job at explaining myself (again - likely!) or it's just not ok to question this here.

I think it’s definitely OK - I’m not reading anyone saying you can’t question it. Just trying to get to the bottom of what your discomfort stems from.

I think I understand what you are saying - you are GC but worried about whose “side” you have ended up on. I think posters are seeing that but responding to say look at the facts - women don’t have penises is not an offensive statement.

I felt the opposite watching the India and Posie debate. India has previously been very vocal against 'transgenderism', self ID, Pip Bunce etc. India has agreed on twitter with Ricky Gervais against transwomen in women's sport, seemingly having no problem with publicly agreeing with someone who has been forthright to say the least on issues like Karen White. So India was being pretty disengenuous anyway with the views expressed in that interview.

The demure, gentle act was also a bit laughable since I'm sure most of us can remember India screaming aggressively in a woman's face on Big Brother and I can certainly remember some of the utterly vile things she has said about other transwomen (referring to one as a dog on a leash).

At least Posie is consistent.

You were much more polite than me Avegemite.

I haven't read all this thread (sorry)

But I posted yesterday on a thread about trans/dv/new zealand.

I am gender critical, no I don't believe women have penises, but I don't believe that is always the helpful thing to say.

I'm my first post I was engaged with and as soon as I made it clear I felt gc people should have left this particular topic alone (because context is everything) literally not one single person replied to me. It was like I ceased to exist because I felt the dv in new zealand angle was more important than whether a particular person had a penis in that particular context. (I'm from NZ and my family has a history of DV)

Does that not worry other people? It worries me. What happened to the gender critical 'side' being the one of facts and reason?

Praising Trump is terrifying. America, again, has a completely different culture to the UK. Young people, confused or not, could be at real risk of his actions. And a lot if the anti-trans activists are massively anti-abortion and women's rights. I'm not cheering for those people.

Nothing in feminism is single issue and I'm scared about how single issue some people are coming across.

OP I don't think people here are saying it's not OK to ask this question. I think they are raising some really interesting points about how much more viscerally we respond to women who aren't considerate / how much more uncomfortable it can be to share one option with people we are generally politically opposed to / than we respond to some pretty outrageous threats to our safety and autonomy.

This fear of seeming bigoted or hateful or unaccommodating is part of what is allowing these changes to go ahead largely unchallenged.

Can I just repeat that I know there are big issues here, for women, for children. I have endometriosis, I have extreme anxiety around the treatment I need for it, I know there's real issues ahead in terms of being able to request female doctors. I was just trying to say I was uncomfortable with big aspects of the current argument and wondered if anyone else was.