Peak GC Moment?

[CantUnderstandNoThing]

I've namechanged for this because I'm a bit nervous of the vitriol I have seen directed at others with a differing opinion.

I know there's been a few threads with people sharing the moments they hit "peak trans", often citing individuals (Karen, Lily etc) or moments that led them to their GC beliefs.

I've realised I've hit peak GC, or perhaps peak t--f would be more appropriate, and I was wondering if anyone else has? For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful. I realised I didn't want to be aligned with that.

The issues of violence towards women, safe spaces and the issues in women's sport are obviously very important and absolutely need discussion but the current angle of "women don't have penises" isn't helping that at all (imo obviously).

Anyone else feel the same? Or starting to feel the same?

All I feel is anger and shock in response to this Orwellian madness. I feel absolutely no sympathy for anyone who feels even slightly like there is any merit to this absurd ideology. Maybe I just wasn't socialised to be nice enough because this bs never did sit well with me, even a few years ago when gender critical people had no voice at all really.

Totally agree with you Swearymum.

I refer to the Transwomen I know by their preferred pronoun ( either she or they with the people I know professionally or personally: 4 or 5 people).

It generally matches the way they ‘present’, and it does me no harm.

Unlike being in a championship. cycle race or worse a combat sport against them, or being locked up in a cell with them. Not that the perfectly lovely Trans individuals would end up in a cell any more than I would.

Courtesy.

Not extended to rapists who end up
In a cell with you, as a PP said.

It's like the current trend in that your opinion about the world is worth the same as anyone else, including over science and critical observation.

But at the same time it is also an inevitable consequence of gender stereotyping. And I can understand how some people would rather be regarded of the opposite sex (and thus blend in and not attract attention) than seen as some "weirdo" of their sex and be under disapproving eyes all the time.

I'm with Swearymum.

And I can understand how some people would rather be regarded of the opposite sex (and thus blend in and not attract attention) than seen as some "weirdo" of their sex and be under disapproving eyes all the time

I see where you are coming from and agree with you on this. But sadly this doesn't really work either in many cases and therefore they are still 'other' as they don't properly fit in the group to which they want to belong. And I do believe that there are people who genuinely just want to force others to dance to their tune, rather than want to be accepted as that which they are not. Back to transgender vs transsexual. I really don't know what the answer is.

Courtesy.

Apparently that's actually transphobic to say that because 'trans rights are not just a courtesy' and if TWAW then you would be using 'she' anyway. Or whatever.

I'm the same though and have used 'she' for the (very obviously not she) transwomen that I have met.

I have said it before though, where is the line at which someone is no longer deserving of their preferred pronouns? Is it when they are derogatory towards women in twitter, when they muscle (no pun intended) in on a women's cycling championship, when they get their willy out in public, or when they sexually assault women in prison? It's a genuine headscratcher.....

What Materialist said. Also what Donkeyskin said some time ago.

I'm thinking that insisting on using 'linguistically accurate' pronouns is a form of gender essentialism.

I'd rather use the linguistically incorrect 'they/their' where absolutely necessary and avoid pronouns as much as possible

I have said it before though, where is the line at which someone is no longer deserving of their preferred pronouns?

IMO, the line exists, but it is quite 'fuzzy' because it depends on both social consensus and individual judgment, like a lot of social convention issues. It's a social convention, it's not reality-based. And 'Fuzzy' concepts are a big part of human thinking and psychology. There's been a lot of work done on that, using that term.

The way I see it, the vast majority of people and organisations that talk or write about Jan Morris have been calling her 'She' for nearly 50 years now, decades before trans-ideology began to get a serious foothold in society. My point is that that's quite a long time, more than long enough for a new social convention to get established, and that's why to many people it feels 'appropriate' to follow that social convention for someone like Jan Morris.

Of course, that social convention may change, as more people begin to get seriously fed up with trans ideology.

I don't think of Jan Morris in any way as "she" any more than I do any other MTF trans person. I'm not sure I ever did, but I did use pronouns in the past and called them "transwomen". And probably would to someone's face. But I think it's harmful to women.

Yeah, how I think of Jan Morris is very different to how I think of an actual woman: definitely not in the same category.

But using the pronouns comes under a different brain module for me - like I said, social/linguistic conventions. But then, I am very interested in language. Maybe I was influenced by all those nouns with le or la prefixing them that I had to learn for French, where the 'gender' of the object is totally random!

(Definitely a side issue, but one of the oddities of reading French as an English speaker is constantly coming across sentences like this:

La victime est un homme de 20 ans

There are lots of gendered words like that that remain masculine or feminine regardless of the sex of the individual they are applying to. I'm at the point of fluency now where I only have cognitive dissonance about it occasionally, but still haven't repressed it entirely. I presume native speakers don't even notice it.

Yes I agree Kesstrel. Linguistic gender is a whole different ball game!

I think, for me, not conceding any language in public speech has become a political red line. I won't be conceding pronouns or the word woman or anything else.

How I relate to friends and family in private is another thing altogether (although I concede that the only trans person in my social circle is GC anyway and wouldn't give a shit what pronouns someone used about them).

Jan Morris now doesnt think they are a woman either. Said so in the FT a few weeks back.

Not read the thread, but just wanted to say you don't have to agree exactly with what other people say, or where they draw the line in the sand, to be gender critical. Personally I don't have issue with people who have gone through full surgery using some women's spaces, although I draw the line at refuges and sport. Others feel differently. I do think women should have the right to choose, rather than males and transactivists trying to stamp over women's rights. Because of these things, and because none of us have the right to tell other women where that line should be drawn, I will go with no male bodied people in female spaces, because its impossible to put the line anywhere else without making women feel uncomfortable / putting women / children at risk. I don't agree with all of Posies views, but we are different people. That's fine. I do appreciate and respect everything she has done for women and I will continue to support her as much as I can. What is more important is safeguarding woman and children's rights. And without people like Posie and the other amazing grass roots organisations is that those rights would have been trampled into the ground, without anyone noticing until it was too late.

I think some people have conflated being gender critical with being passionate about women's rights. You can fight for women's rights, protections and freedoms and still believe in the idea of a brain body mismatch. Quite a lot of regular posters here are not gender critical but fiercely advocate for the protection of women's spaces. I am fiercely gender critical because, from a personal perspective, it is the ideology that threatens my GNC daughter, more so than the loss of women's spaces. But we are all feminists.

Linguistic gender is a whole different ball game!

The American humourist, Mark Twain once observed (and I paraphrase) that in the German language, chairs have a gender whereas women do not.

Excellent point, Sarah. I am GC but would not describe myself as a feminist, only because there are so many permutations of feminism that I find it difficult to ally myself with one.

Nuanced, respectful thread about preferred pronoun use as a voluntary courtesy v. mandatory/coerced use of those pronouns:

twitter.com/Docstockk/status/1058310296824102912

I'm highlighting the mutual respect because it so often seems as if this can't happen.

Another - "oh, look it never happens and, when it does, it's not that bad" post.

Yawn.

Oh, and Reanimated - drop the use of the word "cis", please.