Peak GC Moment?

[CantUnderstandNoThing]

I've namechanged for this because I'm a bit nervous of the vitriol I have seen directed at others with a differing opinion.

I know there's been a few threads with people sharing the moments they hit "peak trans", often citing individuals (Karen, Lily etc) or moments that led them to their GC beliefs.

I've realised I've hit peak GC, or perhaps peak t--f would be more appropriate, and I was wondering if anyone else has? For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful. I realised I didn't want to be aligned with that.

The issues of violence towards women, safe spaces and the issues in women's sport are obviously very important and absolutely need discussion but the current angle of "women don't have penises" isn't helping that at all (imo obviously).

Anyone else feel the same? Or starting to feel the same?

Being and feeling are not the same.

Exactly.

I'm sure that the way I am, I'd feel just as at ease being a man than being a woman. Except that I'd have a penis and wouldn't be able to bear children, plus would only feel the need to shave my face and not my legs.

It's sad that people who don't conform to male or female stereotypes (but I think mostly for men) feel more at ease by switching the gender they are viewed as.

*.

I don't disbelieve that some men sincerely believe and feel they are women. I just don't understand why anyone thinks that actually makes them a woman. *

Would you feel it incumbent to keep reminding someone who felt that way that they could never be?

*.

I'm sure that the way I am, I'd feel just as at ease being a man than being a woman. Except that I'd have a penis and wouldn't be able to bear children, plus would only feel the need to shave my face and not my legs. *

You’re sure? Absolutey? It is a true gift to know 100% what an experience you’ve never had is.

Would you feel it incumbent to keep reminding someone who felt that way that they could never be?

Not for fun. Only when necessary because you know, other people have rights.

Then give me a definitive description of why you feel right as a woman, and what makes it so

Errm, I don't feel 'right' as a woman. I'm just sort of resigned to it, like I am to being short-arsed and short-sighted.

I would love to read Mumsnet in say 100 years where perhaps science has produced irrefutable proof that what trans people experience is very real - or even reached a stage where a treatment could change every chromosome or organ in the body.

Ooh - I've seen ALMOST those exact words before...

Nonetheless, allow me to challenge it. Speculating about science fiction - for that is what your statement here is - proves nothing.

Indeed, it only goes to reinforce the fact that gender is a social construct and what you and the other TRAs crave is the ability to change sex. Which you can't. Speculating about - and hoping for - some point in the year 4000 when people might have invented a machine to transform someone from a man into a woman only goes to show that you know perfectly well transwomen are not women.

MrsCupCake91 surely this also applies to transgender people?

When a man says he feels like a woman, for example, do you then think You're sure? Absolutely? It is a true gift to know 100% what an experience you’ve never had is.
...

I would love to read Mumsnet in say 100 years where perhaps science has produced irrefutable proof that what trans people experience is very real - or even reached a stage where a treatment could change every chromosome or organ in the body.

Great, I'll change all mine so I become Naomi Campbell.

I am 5 ft. However, I feel and have lived as a 6 ft 5 woman. Who are you to say that the mismatch I feel between needing to clamber onto kitchen counters to reach things from the top shelves and the willowy giant that I actually am isn't scientifically sound, just because science can't explain it yet? In the future, brain scans will probably show I have a tall person's brain in a short person's body.

If you disagree with me, it's probably because you've been fortunate enough to feel a congruence with your physical height and your inner height and so never truly experienced how awful it is to be trapped in the wrong height. I'm sure you'll support me when I sue the UK women's basketball team for denying me my rights to play on the team for the Olympics.

I'm sure that the way I am, I'd feel just as at ease being a man than being a woman. Except that I'd have a penis and wouldn't be able to bear children, plus would only feel the need to shave my face and not my legs.

You’re sure? Absolutey? It is a true gift to know 100% what an experience you’ve never had is.

If I can't be sure of how I'd feel being a man, then, it's even less possible for people who "feel" they should be of the other sex. How can they possibly know how people of the other sex feel like?

So as pretty much everyone agrees that it is impossible to define what it 'feels like' to be a man or a woman, when segregation is necessary we have to rely on an immutable, binary fact, like sex class.

Gender identity, or expression, is an individual right, and is a spectrum (that's why I don't agree at all with what is happening in the US, they are getting sex and gender mixed up, and are also not representing intersex conditions from what I understand).

But sex is not gender. I oppose sex-based discrimination against women and girls, I also oppose discrimination based on gender identity. But when it comes to a choice, sex is more important than gender identity.

Ihaventgottimeforthis

Errm, I don't feel 'right' as a woman. I'm just sort of resigned to it, like I am to being short-arsed and short-sighted.

Same here.

In the same way that in my mind, I'm actually a supermodel, but reality thinks otherwise.

“Not for fun. Only when necessary because you know, other people have rights.”

But this is what I struggle with. Genuinely. If someone law abiding and decent changes from man to woman, what rights do we lose? I honestly can’t see any. I totally get the safety factor worries obviously - but trans people must have been using the ladies before all this started. I don’t think “safety” has anything inherently to do with someone being transgender - but I do think certainly people like Posie have tried to make ot look that way. Above all else, that’s what I find distateful. Some are deliberately trying to make the public think transgender people are either ill or dangerous - and I have the evidence before my eyes as I speak (Preparing to go Halloweening with the grandkids). She takes them in toilets, shopping, everything - and not once has anyone said you can’t come in either because I believe you are missing a womb and the necessary chromosomes.

I haven’t peaked, but I have had to step away a little. And I do feel weird enough about Trump and the right wing media to question if I’m right.

You’re sure? Absolutey? It is a true gift to know 100% what an experience you’ve never had is.

It certainly is. But it doesn't stop quite a few men claiming they know a hundred percent what the experience of being a woman is. Since they are one.

An easier question might be what is the difference between their experience of womanhood and that of a man who is not trans?

This is only a big deal now because of Self Id. A person living their life in the opposite gender to their sex, most people didn't care too much.

But, you make that person then legally the opposite sex. Legally able to go to a woman's prison when they are a sex offender with an intact and operable penis.... and you are taking rights away from women.

This is nothing to do with law abiding individuals. It's about changes in the law that strip women's rights.

You dont have to agree with everything posie parker says. I disagree with her on several issues. I am not her. I am grateful to her though. We really do need passionate campaigners, and sometimes we really do need to hear the extremists, because thats how we find a good compromise.

But this is what I struggle with. Genuinely. If someone law abiding and decent changes from man to woman, what rights do we lose? I honestly can’t see any.

There are lots of threads which lay these reasons out. Try reading them. It's clear you struggle with the concept of other people's boundaries.

How do you know what their experience is of being a woman? Any proof? How do you know what someone born trans experiences? Or a man for that matter? The answer is none of us know anything other than our own individual experience.

Being a transwoman is an experience unique to transwomen. No woman has ever been a man who feels like they are a woman.

But that's what being a transwoman is. Transwomen are not women. 'Woman' is not a feeling.

I think we lose the right to define ourselves as a sex class, and we lose the right to exclude males from our spaces when it is deemed proportionate and reasonable.
FWIW I don't have an issue with mixed sex toilets, but I can understand some women do.
But I do have an issue with mixed sex communal changing facilities, mixed sex competitive sport, mixed sex all-women shortlists in business and politics, and mixed sex services for vulnerable women, like domestic abuse refuges, crisis centres and so on, as well as intimate health & social care.
Honestly, in many of these cases, women would accept transwomen in to their space, if they are in need (as they often are). But it needs to be on invitation, with consent, informed consent.

If someone law abiding and decent changes from man to woman, what rights do we lose?

It has been fine when changing wasn't so easy and only a few would transition.

While I don't have any problem with anyone presenting as what they like, it can become a problem when it involves vulnerable groups (such as raped women), when it involves physical activities (such as sports), when it involves taking advantage of schemes that are designed to help women achieve equality with men, and when it involves presence in sensitive places (quite a few changing rooms).
In some of these cases, intermediate options could make sense.

I do think some people tend to overreact over things like men in store changing rooms, or even toilets that have cubicles. Even men fitting bras, which could be equivalent to male gynaecologists. Some women might not see a problem with a male bra fitter, but those who don't want one should be able opt out.

There is not one man in this world who has any real knowledge of what it is like to experience life as a woman.

They may think they do..they may feel they do. They may even have full gender reassignment surgery and live and pass as a woman.
But they will never know what it is like to be born and live as a biological woman.
You have your experience and I have mine and I’m sick of you misappropriating my womanhood for your own reasons.

But none of us women have the same experience of being a woman.

Some of us have heavy periods, others light. Some have children, others don't. Some have typical female body shapes, others don't. How we've experienced discrimination and abuse is different. Even menopause is different. Some prefer arts, others sports, others science, etc, etc.

But none of us women have the same experience of being a woman.

Some of us have heavy periods, others light. Some have children, others don't. Some have typical female body shapes, others don't. How we've experienced discrimination and abuse is different. Even menopause is different. Some prefer arts, others sports, others science, etc, etc.

The one thing that all women have in common is their female body. It's the only shared experience that all women have.

No male, including a transwoman, has ever had that experience.

There is no shared innate sense of 'womanhood' that all women feel, that isn't linked to them having a female body.