Is the problem with Stonewall?

[Ohallright]

As above, if the definition of trans was the transsexual people, or those actively seeking to change their body, would we have the same problem?

Who decided that Stonewall’s definition is the one to be used in law?

When media and commentators say there is no problem in other countries (thinking of Ireland re Women’s Hour) are we all using the same, huge, golf umbrella?

We don't see to be using that same, all-inclusive definition elsewhere.

As for Stonewall, the problem seems to lie with Ruth Hunt's accession to power and overwhelming focus on trans rights even to the detriment of the LGB rights.

If we were still talking about 5,000 or so people with medically diagnosed dysphoria, then no, I don't think all this would be happening.

Stonewall shouldn’t exist any more as their raison d’etre was equal rights for homosexual people. That’s been achieved so they should disband. But they are greedy, and Ruth Hunt is the greediest of all.

That what I think. If the old definition of trans held sway, I think more women would be welcoming.

It just shows how the definition of words matter. If the definitions of the words used in legislation are stretched, it makes a mockery of the law and parliamentary democracy.

The Stonewall definition is a huge problem for older transpeople. A lot of them were subject to male violence. Now maybe 500000 male people might be legally defined as trans. You can see why many are not keen at all. Many dont regard cross dressers or part timers as legitimately trans.

Ruth Hunt's changed her tune a bit since 2013. www.telegraph.co.uk/women/sex/10041976/Lesbian-online-dating-apps-Why-are-straight-men-posing-as-gay-women.html

I would never have had a problem with the original definition.
There are no boundaries now and that is the problem.

Even if the old definition held sway, self-ID would undermine it.

empress I can't believe what I just read in your link :

"Ruth Hunt, deputy chief executive at Stonewall, a gay, lesbian and bi-sexual charity, says this is no laughing matter. “This issue of men lying to meet lesbians is as old as time, they’ve just found a new way to do it,"

Changed her tune is right -that's like going from ABBA to ZZTOP! !

Can't help but wonder who is paying the piper. .....

iirc, Julie Bindel recently tweeted something about Ruth Hunt approaching her with a view to having a chat with her when Hunt was in the process of applying/interviewing for the Stonewall post.

Found it - Jemima Puddleduck: Tue 16-Oct-18 20:14:27

Julie Bindel who tweeted recently that she's met Stonewall CEO Ruth Hunt before she interviewed for the post and discussed what her take was going to be on the trans issue. Then her opinion then was that Stonewall should help the 'T' set up its own organisation. This was echoed by another journalist.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3396459-David-Davies-MP-speaks-out-about-harrassment-calls-for-stop-to-GRA-reform-urgent-review-involving-womens-groups?pg=2&messages=100

I find it so sad. I used to raise money for Stonewall and thought they were brilliant getting all the rights for LBG people enshrined in law. I supported anti discrimination legislation for people who are transsexual. I also think people should be able to express themselves how they like, without fear - I really don’t care if women wear trousers and men wear dresses and I would love it if we expanded the gender norms, so there are no differences.

I find myself being so angry that (mainly) men are using these rights to stomp on women. I keep thinking this is not about gender, but about sex.This is not a progressive society move, but regressive!

I used to volunteer for Stonewall. I remember coming out of my house & seeing a SOME PEOPLE ARE LESBIANS - GET OVER IT poster & it brightened my whole day.

If Stonewall still cared about lesbians & gays they'd be giving Janice Turner their Journalist of the Year award. It's really depressing that they're actively homophobic now

RiverTam Wed 24-Oct-18 22:02:19
Stonewall shouldn’t exist any more as their raison d’etre was equal rights for homosexual people. That’s been achieved so they should disband. But they are greedy, and Ruth Hunt is the greediest of all.

Or take on a more international focus while maintaining a watching brief over homophobia in this country. Not like that's died out, after all.

yes, that would be good too. What a shame it's gone in the direction it has.

I think there is still a need for stonewall - homophobia hasn’t been eradicated (although it would be easier to combat if it weren’t coming from inside the organisation itself) and providing support and resources for gay people is a very valuable thing, IMO.

Women in theory have equal rights but there is still a need for organisations to help women tackle the unique issues they face and I think it’s the same for the LGB community. It’s just a shame that stonewall don’t seem to fit for purpose as is.

Homophobia hasn’t been erased. It’s just sad that the LGB organisation is now the one pushing it by castigating lesbians for refusing lady dick, changing the definitions of gay and lesbian from same sex attraction to emotional attraction and supporting conversion therapy by blindly supporting transitioning of young kids who would’ve grown up gay.

I must admit, it is quite astonishing to me that Stonewall are now unable to define homosexuality. Or certainly unable to define it as same-sex attraction.

Stonewall is as now as homophobic as the people they were fighting against for their whole existence.

And I'm quite sure most of the general public have absolutely no idea.

And I'm quite sure most of the general public have absolutely no idea.

That's the trouble with all of this. People doing things that make massive changes either secretly or as quietly as possible. Look at the Guides: changed from a single sex to a single gender organisation without telling parents or the body that supervises them (think it may be the Charity Commissioner). And there are a terrifying number of other examples.

Action For Children have this morning corrected their Diversity policy having previously had 'gender' as protected characteristic rather than 'sex'

from thread, "Julie Bentley, ex-CEO of Girl Guiding UK is now Chief whatever of Action for Children."

Shelter recently corrected its advice re overcrowding where housing legislation concerning children sharing bedrooms with the opposite sex, had been misquoted using the term 'gender'

Ruth Hunt is vice chair of Shelter's Trustees

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3404539-Major-childrens-charity-Stonewall-Mermaids-and-gender

EmpressAdultHumanFemale Wow! just wow. I'm saying no more, as I would get deleted.
Lesbian dating apps are not worth the bother, even worse now.

Lesbian dating apps are not worth the bother, even worse now.

So I hear. I'm bloody thankful I came out in the 90s, into a supportive lesbian community, & not now.

I remember when I used to read Diva, go to lesbian bars & have a Stonewall T-shirt...

I have zero issue with the old definition. Quite frankly I think that the vast majority of the population were accepting/didn’t really give a shit about transsexuals accessing spaces/services for the sex they transed to because the need was clear and the perceived risks they posed were no different to any other person if their sex. But including transgender people, gender fluid people, cross dressers etc has resulted in a huge shift. ‘Trans’ activists are much more aggressive about asserting their rights and demanding recognition of their adopted gender. As a result many people are feelings my threatened or intimidated, some are being harassed or threatened with violence for raising concerns. And of course the buck ends with transsexual people. Their situation hasn’t changed but while they were once able to look be their lives relatively peacefully they’ve now been sucked into a political storm and I don’t think that it is going to be very long before members of the general public start misdirecting their anger towards trans activists on to trans people. I think that having a medical diagnosis of dysphoria and undergoing years of transition and treatment as a result is very difficult deferent from feeling like a man/woman and cross dressing to express that. It is absurd to put the two into the same category.

relevent threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384407-Times-letter-petition-STONEWALL-CRITICISED-undermining-women-s-sex-based-rights-and-protections-Jonny-Best-et-al

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/a3366278-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-CEO

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384455-Ruth-Hunt-Stonewall-do-not-and-will-not-acknowledge-that-there-is-a-conflict-between-trans-rights-and-sex-based-women-s-rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard/3384045-Petition-to-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3384782-PM-radio-four-Stonewall-petition

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3337410-Artistic-Director-of-Queer-Up-North-speaks-out-on-trans-activism-Stonewall-and-womens-rights

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3385418-Stonewall-Champion-School-HT-asks-what-safeguarding-concerns

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3383249-stonewall-encouraging-primary-aged-children-to-fill-in-the-gra-consultation

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299575-Lachlan-Stuart-on-Alex-Drummand-Stonewall-Advisor-on-trans

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3399318-Links-to-Stonewall-info-Need-to-send-to-mp

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3366612-Stonewall-100-per-cent-white-95-per-cent-male

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3402395-The-hugely-lucrative-business-of-transgenderism

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3355712-Aimee-Challenor-Stonewall

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3177126-Stonewall-training

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3311959-Stonewall-The-Truth-about-Trans

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323180-Spectator-article-the-limits-of-stonewall-s-tolerance

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3143904-Why-dont-Stonewall-do-proper-meaningful-research

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3300986-Stonewall-condemn-transphobia-at-London-Pride

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3325247-Stonewall-report-into-domestic-and-violent-services

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3242812--Amnesty-International-Mermaids-and-Stonewall-have-signed-an-open-letter-to-Penny-Mordaunt-stating-the-importance-of-reforming-the-Gender-Recognition-Act

2017
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3069102-Stonewall-really-are-throwing-women-udner-the-bus-arent-they-sad

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3091260-Ruth-Hunt-on-butch-lesbians-not-needing-the-support-of-transphobes

R0wantrees thank you!!!!!

Quite frankly I think that the vast majority of the population were accepting/didn’t really give a shit about transsexuals accessing spaces/services for the sex they transed to because the need was clear and the perceived risks they posed were no different to any other person if their sex.

Yes. When it was just a question of a small number of people with dysphoria, I think most people were far less bothered.