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Feminism: Sex & gender discussions

Why don't Stonewall do proper meaningful research?

36 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/01/2018 09:53

Latest Stonewall Trans report is now available.

www.stonewall.org.uk/comeoutforLGBT/lgbt-britain-trans-report

Lots of sensational statistics.

But, their methodology seems to me to be a bit dodgy...

^Participants were recruited through the YouGov panel, as well as an open recruitment that circulated through a wide range of
organisations, community groups and individuals.^

How exactly did this open recruitment occur? Were YouGov involved in this stage of the process? How did they ensure results weren't skewed by folk self-declaration to do the survey.

^The overall sample size of participants who are trans and/or non-binary is 871. Unless stated otherwise, findings reported for
'trans people' refer to respondents who identified themselves as trans (total sample 733 respondents), which includes trans people
who identified themselves also as non-binary; findings reported for 'non-binary people' refer to all those who identified themselves
as non-binary (total sample 414 respondents), of whom two thirds identify also as trans^

This is a very small sample. AFAIK polling companies aim for a minimum of 1000 to get meaningful results. What definitions of "trans " and "non-binary" did they use to promote those polled. In fact, why not publish the actual question/s used?

^65 per cent of trans and non-binary respondents are from England, 18 per cent are from Wales and 17 per cent are
from Scotland^

This seems a little odd - why does Scotland have 17% of trans people in the UK with 10%% of the population? No explanation or theory given for this.

34 per cent are male, 17 per cent are female and 48 per cent describe their gender in a different way.

Surely, surely sex is actually a fairly important question to ask so the researchers are aware of a) confounding factors and b) the different experiences of TIMs and TIFs.

^Different terms that
respondents used to describe their gender identity include ‘non-binary’, ‘genderfluid’ and ‘genderqueer’. People who used a
different term to describe their gender identity are referred to as ‘non-binary’ throughout the report^

Are they assuming gender Shock How can they legitimately call agender, for example, non-binary? Again what was the actual question, and what answers were given. Publish the raw data!

^ 20 per cent of trans and non-binary respondents are gay or lesbian, 34 per cent are bi, 30 per cent use a different term to
describe their sexual orientation and 13 per cent are straight. Different terms that respondents used to describe their sexual
orientation include ‘pansexual’ and ‘queer’^

Does lesbian include TIMs? Again, why not publish the question and answers?

51 per cent of respondents are disabled.

Again, these numbers are very interesting, and ignored in the analysis. That is a lot of disabled people, a group that is also known to face a lot of discrimination. How exactly has stonewall ascertained that the oppression faced by those polled is because they are disabled rather than trans? Again, publishing ofmraw data required.

Nine per cent of respondents are black, Asian or minority ethnic

This seems high too -'how is Stonewall neutralising the fact that all of these protected groups face their own issues, without being trans?

^The figures have been weighted by region and age. All differences reported in the survey are statistically significant. All names
in quotes have been changed for anonymity and ages have been assigned from within age bands.^

Again, I would like to see the raw data on this - and why on earth series they collecting names in the first place?

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/01/2018 09:54

Sorry, I forgot to add, that if Stonewall really want to help LGB T people they need to domgood quality research, otherwise it just looks like they are creating the research to get the answers they want.

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Thermostatpolice · 19/01/2018 10:02

Thanks for this analysis. The methodology does indeed seem a bit dodgy based on what you said. Have you asked Stonewall those questions by any chance? I'd love to know what their response is.

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Stopmakingsense · 19/01/2018 10:15

This is a different Stonewall report, but there is a good analysis (ie pointing out flaws) of their school report here:

www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

It is distressing to see people ridiculed and victimised, nobody would wish that on anybody. Unfortunately the human race is unkind to people who step outside the norms, and this is the problem that needs to be tackled. It is not going to happen by pretending to agree that somehow people have been born into the wrong body. It is going to happen by empowering people to feel they can dress and present themselves as they wish, regardless of their biological sex. That is not transphobia.

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Stopmakingsense · 19/01/2018 10:21

And I see that Stonewall deny absolutely the possibility of social contagion, (especially amongst teenage girls) :

"This situation is not acceptable, and it has been made worse by increasingly frequent attacks in the media and on social media from a vocal minority. Headlines and stories that make ludicrous claims that people are being ‘turned trans’, and that sensationalise and misrepresent the reality of being trans are reminiscent of days gone by: Days when the media constantly hounded lesbian, gay and bi people as deviants prevented progress on equality for so long"

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joystir59 · 19/01/2018 10:27

Why would any campaign group support an ideology which embraces surgical disfigurement of healthy bodies, the life long taking of hormones and sterility?

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nauticant · 19/01/2018 10:38

The answer to the question posed in the title is that Stonewall are worried the results of their research might go against the prevailing orthodoxy.

To paraphrase your comment they are creating the research to get the answers they believe will fit with the views of their target audience.

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/01/2018 10:56

The answer to the question posed in the title is that Stonewall are worried the results of their research might go against the prevailing orthodoxy

That's pretty unethical. Though I guess they have backed themselves into a corner. The potential consequences of transitioning (a life time on medication, and complex surgery) surely merit some proper rigourous research.

I'm amazed that everyone just quotes the statistics, without looking at the methodology, including people who really should know better.

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SchrodingersFrilledLizard · 19/01/2018 10:57

They don't do proper research because their aim is not to research a topic but to follow an agenda.

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QuentinSummers · 19/01/2018 11:02

This is a bit euphemistic:
Two in five trans people (42 per cent) who would like to undergo medical intervention as part of their transition, haven’t done so yet, because they fear the consequences it might have on their family life.
Seems like they haven't done so yet because it could make them infertile and they want to fulfil their biological destiny first.

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Stopmakingsense · 19/01/2018 11:07

Or because a medical practitioner won't agree to it because to do so would not be in their best interests

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Gingernaut · 19/01/2018 11:34

Is this the survey I heard being reported on the BBC news?

google.com/newsstand/s/CBIw1_fTujM This one in the Independent?

Numbers? Methodology? Self reported?

I've been turned down for jobs, I've have short jokes and redhead jokes.

Does that mean people discriminate against short redheads?

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SchrodingersFrilledLizard · 19/01/2018 12:55

they fear the consequences it might have on their family life

it could make them infertile and they want to fulfil their biological destiny first

Men can bank sperm and women freeze their eggs, so I think it is more that transitioning would cause problems with partners and family members.

But I could be wrong, of course.

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EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 13:00

Or they have absolutely no intention of letting a doctor near their dicks with a sharp object.

I'm convinced half of these eejits are chancers.

They constantly lie and delude themselves, I wouldn't trust them to be honest in a survey, regardless of method.

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Terrylene · 19/01/2018 15:07

They don't do proper research because their aim is not to research a topic but to follow an agenda

They work by using PR and swaying public opinion, so they just need enough material to keep those people in a job. It is perceptions that count.

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IndominusRex · 19/01/2018 15:12

Is there a major standalone lesbian charity at all? Seeing as Stonewall are no longer fulfilling that role.

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Thermostatpolice · 19/01/2018 15:37

IndominusRex I'm not a lesbian but would be interested in donating to a standalone lesbian charity, if one exists. Solidarity.

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QuentinSummers · 19/01/2018 15:48

Men can bank sperm and women freeze their eggs

Egg freezing is not very successful and would also require use of a surrogate, which would be very hard to find.

Both egg and sperm freezing and storage cost money.

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JustHooking · 19/01/2018 16:05

The church of stonewall is promoting an ideology, a belief system
No research conducted by them can be trusted because they start with the results already decided
They are looking for research to promote the ideology

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ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/01/2018 16:30

So why are so many legitimate bodies ) organisations swallowing this. Why is no-one applying some critical thinking or analysis of their claims.

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Gingernaut · 19/01/2018 16:33

They'll be pounced on as transphobic if they question it.

They're cutting costs so taking time to do their own research or critically review what they're spoonfed in a press release.

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EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 16:36

So why are so many legitimate bodies ) organisations swallowing this. Why is no-one applying some critical thinking or analysis of their claims

It's baffling. People you've respected for years 100% hook line and sinker behind this. I'm at a loss.

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Terrylene · 19/01/2018 16:45

Its a bit like relying on advertising for facts.

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nauticant · 19/01/2018 16:51

I'm with Gingernaut:
Organisation sticks the brand "Stonewall" on its PR committing to diversity = brownie points.
Organisation questions what Stonewall is saying about T = a sustained and horrible social media campaign erupts to damage the organisation.

For example, look at the volte face Jo Maugham QC did over supporting the fundraising to examine people being included in all-women shortlists on the basis of self-ID. (I know Maugham isn't an organisation but the principle still applies.)

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EamonnWright · 19/01/2018 16:52

In the Irish gender law there's a bottom line. Prison. They can't go into female prisons. Is that an angle to go with? It really is the thin blue line and when it comes down to it they're male. It nips the transwomen are women as a fact into some sort of intellectual level where we are not morons who have lost our minds completely. Then it's something to work with.

They always cite the Irish model as well.

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ArcheryAnnie · 19/01/2018 17:01

34 per cent are male, 17 per cent are female and 48 per cent describe their gender in a different way.

Since all 871 respondents would have a different notion of what "male" and "female" mean, these results are worse than meaningless.

What a shitshow Stonewall have become. (And I was a volunteer with them, right at the beginning.)

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