What is ‘cis privilege’?

[MissSusanSays]

I’ve seen quite a few of the posters wo come on to make the pro-self id argument rage about ‘cis privilege’

Could one of them actually explain what it is? Because I struggle to see how women, who are oppressed by their sex and forced into gender norms, abused, paid less, over looked for promotions, given shoddy maternity care, suffer post natal depression in silence, suffer miscarriages, fight through the shame and difficulty on infertility, endometriosis, breast cancer, rape, sexual assault, menopause, hysterectomy, groping, belittling etc are privileged.

If someone who believes in ‘cis privilege’ can point out to me what privileged women have then I’d really, really like to know.

Or is it just another way to shame women into not talking about the tragic and terrifying things that happen to them because of the way their bodies function?

Oppression Elevenerifes. Ffs.

It's not really that. It's simply acknowledging there are certain privileges about not being transgender that people who are not transgender take for granted.

And there are certain privileges about not being anorexic that people who are not anorexic take for granted. And there are certain privileges about not being schizophrenic that people who are not schizophrenic take for granted. And there are certain privileges about not having heart failure that people who do not have heart failure take for granted.

Stop conflating male people with serious psychological issues with infertile women. It's deeply offensive.

Absolutely this. I find it so upsetting, as someone struggling with infertility, to be belittled by people seeking to use my misfortune to piggyback into women’s groups.

Not having the equipment to carry a child is not the same as having all the right equipment, apparently functioning but not being able to get pregnant. No man knows how that feels. No trans woman knows how that feels. It’s not a fucking ‘privilege’. It’s not a right. It’s just the reality of my body.

Should I demand that no one ever gets pregnant or talks about being pregnant again because I can’t?

Where do these fit in your hierarchy?

Men's inability to bear children is the root of most structural sexism. I don't know if many suffer envy as such, but jealousy is commonplace - the need to control women to ensure paternity. Then there are the constraints pregnancy and nursing (which used to often be a more or less continuous cycle) place on women. The physical differences evolved to allow childbearing.

There are certain privileges of not having cluster B personality disorders that people without cluster B personality disorders take for granted.

Absolutely this. I find it so upsetting, as someone struggling with infertility, to be belittled by people seeking to use my misfortune to piggyback into women’s groups.

💐 MissSusan

Exactly Errol

MissSusan

Howlsmovingcastle, it just shows how little you know about it.

Hog wash. All this so-called phoney feminism being used to marginalise a minority group. Anti trans people trying to make their prejudices sound legit

Hog wash. All this so-called phoney feminism being used to marginalise a minority group. Anti trans people trying to make their prejudices sound legit

Have you read any of my posts? Care to respond to how painful I find it to be compared to someone without female reproductive organs because I cannot get pregnant.

But obviously my feelings, and those of other infertility women, don’t matter. We are just more cannon fodder for those wishing to remove women’s rights.

Even responding to you is ending my anxiety sky high

Howls Exactly. That's the best analogy I've seen

I feel deeply for women who can't have children. That is irrelevant to the anti trans debate.

This isn't an "anti trans debate". It's a thread about why women don't have privilege over male people who want to be women.

But it is anti trans.

If you say so.

There you have it. If you don't think women can oppress men, it's anti-trans.

What I can understand is being told to ‘check your privilege’ when one does not feel privileged as per the OP. Yes that’s annoying.

What I can’t understand is a stubborn refusal to accept there are some circumstances where trans people have a really difficult time of it.

It’s so obvious that navigating work, relationships and general life is v tricky for trans people. In my mind it doesn’t make a person any less gender critical to acknowledge that. In fact I respect GC people a lot more who do acknowledge it.

To reiterate, what is in view is not GC people refusing to accept trans people have a hard time in various arenas.

Cis privilege is a term being specifically directed at women talking about periods, infertility, abortion and FGM to tell them that those things constitute women's 'privilege' over feminine presenting male bodied people.

I don't know how much more clearly I can put it.

What I can’t understand is a stubborn refusal to accept there are some circumstances where trans people have a really difficult time of it.

They're not.

What they're saying is that women as a class, do not have privilege over men as a class, even when those men identify as trans.

Its got nothing to do with comparing individuals on a one-to-one basis.

Barack Obama was more privileged than a homeless white man in London.

That doesn't mean that white people aren't, as a class, privileged over black people.

Take that radio show host, James O'Brien.

He had Posie Parker on the phone saying she didn't want men in her changing room with her young daughter. He kept saying why? Why on earth wouldn't you? Are you saying all men are rapists? Why should you be worried that men are going to attack you?

(It was very frustrating to listen to. Because he was also saying that he wouldn't let his daughter go into a changing room on her own. Cognitive dissonance personified).

However.

He then had a transwoman on the phone who said they didn't want to go into the men's changing rooms/bathrooms. And he was nodding and yessing and agreeing. Oozing empathy.

It was extraordinary. The transwoman had said the same as Posie, but they were agreed with when she wasn't.

They also got twice the amount of air time.

Because they are a man.

They knew it, Posie it, and James knew it.

No amount of identifying as a woman damaged their privilege.

This is repeated across the board with transwomen retaining their privileged positions, despite saying and doing things that would get a woman instantly fired.

Datun I see what you're saying, and sure there are probably a few cases where a trans woman may appear to have privilege over another woman as per your Obama example.

I would strongly argue that as a class women are more privileged than trans women.

How likely is a person to be rejected by their family for being a woman? Or for being a trans woman?

How likely to be rejected by a male partner for being a woman? Or for being a trans woman?

How likely to be rejected by a future employer for being a woman? Or for being a trans woman?

Sure, there may have been a case where a trans woman got more empathy and air time than Posie Parker.

In the face of being rejected by their family, potential partners and employers I would still stay that trans women have less privilege than women overall.

How likely is a person to be rejected by their family for being a woman? Or for being a trans woman?

Oh good lord. 117 million females aren't even bloody born, because they are female.

How likely to be rejected by a male partner for being a woman? Or for being a trans woman?

Straight men do not have sex with other men, however they identify. And discrimination over sex partners is the norm.

How likely to be rejected by a future employer for being a woman? Or for being a trans woman?

Again ridiculous. The mummy penalty will not apply to a man. There are 450 transwomen working at the BBC!

You don't seem to understand the concept of privilege or oppression.

Men are identifying from the oppressor group into an oppressed group. It is entirely within their power not to do so, if the disadvantage outweighed the advantage. That is not being part of an oppressed group.

You cannot do it the other way round. You can't identify into a group above you. Hence no powerful transmen, or very few.

It is men who are forcing women to accept them in their spaces. Men who are beating women at sport. Men who are attacking women in prison. Men who are demanding women accept them to do their smear test.

Ignoring the inherent power dynamic between men and women means you will never recognise what it is you're trying to talk about.

Male privilege is alive and well in transwomen. And female oppression is alive and well in transmen. They both conform to their category, despite identifying as the opposite.

twitter.com/StrawC8ke/status/1055188283448324098?fbclid=IwAR1USS5pGqk-NI_6mdmiG2mE9yxbCZbazGwiLpV0TEIEhjKxpnSgt-D77Y4

This is a feed from a transsexual that @Feminist4 might like to describe as 'hogwash'

How likely to be rejected by a male partner for being a woman? Or for being a trans woman?

Being able to get people to have sex or enter a relationship with you isn't anyone's right.

However a lot of men see it that way: incels, rapists, men who use prostitutes and any man who justifies pressuring women into sex because "men have needs". Oh, and some transwomen.

That's why you get men who identify as women whining that lesbians aren't interested. Well, no shit, Sherlock.

Expecting people to have sex with you is classic male entitlement and it totally rubbishes their claims to be women. You never hear women complaining about this stuff.